Web3 Galaxy Brain 🌌🧠

Nicholas: Welcome to Web3 Galaxy Brain. My name is Nicholas, and each week I have a conversation with some of the brightest minds building Web3. On today's episode, I'm joined by Weejoo. Weejoo and Anna, who are building Interface, a human-readable social Web3 feed. At the time of recording, Interface is an iOS and Android app that lets you follow wallets and scroll through an infinite feed of their recent activity. It's a great way to see recent swaps, mints, and transfers, and over time, the team is building richer indexing and transaction parsing to show things like snapshot votes, mirror blog posts, and their most recent feature, Gnosis Multi-SIG signatures. In this interview, Anna and Weejoo describe how they found their passion for decentralization, their process for fundraising and building Web3 apps in public, and their long-term plans for building a sustainable, open-source, public-goods DAO that generates revenues for token holders. This is a great team and an episode not to be missed. I hope you enjoy the show. Welcome Weejoo and Anna to the podcast. How are you doing today?

Anna: Great. Hello.

Wijuwiju: How are you?

Nicholas: Good, good, good. So today we're going to talk all about your project, Interface app. But first I want to know a little bit about you. Tell me, how did each of you get into crypto in the first place? Maybe Weejoo, you can go first, and then Anna.

Wijuwiju: Okay, sure. So I got into crypto back in the previous cycle, 2017. And I got first introduced by Juan Bennett's conference video about IPFS on I think Defcon 1 or something like this. And so basically, this is the first time I understood and saw all the progress on decentralized storage and such. And straight after that, I landed on Ethereum.org page. And then, yeah, I think I got really overwhelmed with all the potentials of technologies. And coming from the background from the country that had been degrading and cutting all the censorship and etc. So I could really understand all the benefits of decentralized architecture that could then enable us to prevent such abuses of power and so on. So there was a lot of, I would say, triggers hit me straight away. And I just kept, since then, I always been just conceptualizing, thinking how such things could be applied for the good and able to, because probably chains do possess this power that they can be used for both good and bad.

Nicholas: Very true. And actually, we met originally hanging out around Juicebox. I know you were working a little bit on some Dune dashboards for a little while over at Juicebox. Are there any other projects that you contributed to along your journey?

Wijuwiju: Yeah. So back in 2017, I spent a lot of time doing bounces on Bitcoin. That's basically immediately after I kind of touched, as I previously mentioned, on technologies. And I was not technical back then. So it basically triggered my, I just went out to learn code because I wanted to participate in what I perceived as a huge civilization enabling technology. So I went to learn code and then started contributing doing bounties on Gitcoin. So I started doing bounties. It was balanced back then. It was like Rick Barton. Now it's Rainbow. But back then it was just balance. Then there was this life here. So I was doing small, just bounties for writing their apps, etc. And playing around with various other things that we just built with the friend whom I met who was also into crypto back then. And yes, so then I went to traditional tech companies, product companies for the next two years. And then at the end of 2020, I got back, started building things like on top of Uniswap to just to get some offer for the liquidity and etc. Then I contributed and kind of just joined. I don't know if you're familiar with this. This is like an NFT marketplace that distributes a portion of the sales to the public goods. It's on Polygon. It's doing good. And I helped them do the web 3 integrations. And in the meantime, I was just like building various tools and contributing to things like juicebox, etc. Doing queries for various projects. Just trying and helping wherever I found interesting. Governance, doing analytics, whatever. What was...

Nicholas: Yeah, I know Manu from Doing Good, right?

Wijuwiju: Yeah, exactly.

Nicholas: Yeah, that's Manu Alzurou, if anyone is curious. And it's at doinggood on Twitter. That's cool. And Anna, how did you get involved first? How long have you been thinking about crypto ideas?

Anna: To be honest, I'm still very new. So basically, I met Vizhu. It's funny to call him by that name. But okay, I met him in 2020. And basically, he was like telling me about this crypto thing and Ethereum and everything. And I think I didn't do much back then. I just got my first Ethereum wallet and maybe a few NFTs. Not sure. And then I think half a year ago, maybe like a year ago already, Vizhu started his journey with Uniswap and Uniletters. And I was helping him out with the PoEps and the cover images for the letters. And then yeah, I did a few PoEps as well for Uniswap community calls, which I love. I love doing PoEps. It's like my best hobby so far. And then we started Interface and now I'm designing stuff at Interface.

Nicholas: Can you explain? I didn't quite catch the Uniswap letters and PoEp piece. What was that project you were working on?

Anna: Oh, maybe I don't know if you know, but Vizhu was curating Uniletters. So it's like bi-weekly emails about everything that's happening with Uniswap or something like that. And I was helping him out with the visuals. So the cover image, I was doing them. And then sometimes he was also offering PoEps. So I was helping him out with that as well.

Nicholas: So you still feel like crypto is new to you, basically?

Anna: Yeah, yeah, definitely. I still understand maybe like half, no, not even half. I don't know, like 30% of what's going on. But I think it's actually really helpful when designing what we are designing right now. Because I'm like a non-crypto native, so it's good to be in this mindset, I think.

Wijuwiju: And I think actually interface was kind of partially, kind of the idea was to build an interface also to onboard. Because Anushka was like, it's hard to send somebody an Ether scan and expect somebody from outside the space to actually make sense what's inside of it. So yeah, that was also, I think, one of the kind of trigger points behind building the interface just so that you can send somebody something readable who can navigate and access what is happening within the Ether scan transaction.

Nicholas: Okay, so we might as well jump right in. So for people who are listening to this who haven't yet played with the app, what is interface?

Wijuwiju: So an interface is an application, right, in its current form. Problem we're trying to solve is infused like Web3 and everything that is happening on chain and around the chain that is affiliated with your public address. So we're trying to make it discoverable and readable. So this is like the essence of what we're trying to solve. So because we see that a lot of things, the transactions, they are underneath. There is a lot of things that are happening. So the transaction could be a vote on the governance proposal. It could be the proposal itself. It could be like an NFT. It could be a swap. It could be some deposit into a protocol. It could be a transfer to another chain. It could be anything because Ethereum enables people to code whatever they want and whatever they come up with. So there's like limitless possibilities and current space kind of lacked a little bit on this covering everything. So there was like an initial era, what we perceived was Bitcoin was like era of block explorers. that kind of just showed you the transaction. Then there was DeFi era when there were different platforms that were trying to solve the financial aggregations, building up the balances and so on. And now like last year and a half, I would say probably there's been a lot more happening within the space. So there's like a mirror that popped up, a lot of visual NFT marketplaces, music, assets, governance, been growing and etc. So a lot more other activities have kind of spun up within the space and those require those activities and sectors require different means of communication of what is actually happening. And another point, this is what I meant by readability and another one is discoverability. So for one person to find opportunities, find content, discover, etc. There's like an enormous problem with finding people to follow by finding new opportunities in different spaces, discovering new artists, discovering new music, discovering events, reading new publications, getting notified when there's a new proposal has happened, when you get bid or you get outbid, etc. Depending on what means we're talking about, what platforms and activities. And this is like the second part that we're trying to solve so that make the Web3 natively surfable so that you can kind of keep using interface. And now we can go into the actual interface as of today. So today it's more like we kind of approach with readability first. So we introduced the feed that is basically the activities of the people you follow. So we kind of started with a very simple social graph. So you just add people and wallets basically and follow them. And thus you get like a chronological feed of all activities they do. You get notified when they do something, etc. And this is like our first initial piece of discovering. So that is like based of social graph. But then you could go into like token graphs, like depending on what assets you hold, you will be able to discover people who are in the same communities. Because like NFTs could be underneath, they could mean anything. So for example, if we're talking about communities, then a lot of like the current era of NFTs, like 19, I don't know how what percentage, but majority of them are essentially communities. So they're just identities for the communities. And whatever they're building, whether they're going for metaverse, they're building their own lores, etc. But those are communities. And so when you possess one of the pieces of items from this community, it means like you're a part of this community. So it makes sense for you to discover somebody else who is with you. But you might not see them because he's right next to you. He holds this token. But for now, it's not that trivial to find the holder or like your member. And yeah, same goes for like GnosisSafe, for example, JuiceBox. When there's like people who are signing the safe for the DAO, I think it's pretty cool to just go and see who are these people, whether you can trust them, make sense of the possessions, what they hold, what their activity has been. So can you trust this multi-sig signer, etc. So yeah, I think I touched a lot.

Nicholas: Every single time we talk, I end up DMing WeJu feature requests. Too many feature requests. And as you're talking about this, the thing that I want right away is, you know, show me like my most highly correlated other wallets that have the same assets that I own. Show me the people to follow who already have what I have or have what I have and what they're doing right now. It seems like maybe they're going to be the ones most likely to know what I want to buy next. But also, as you're saying, even just like, you know, who are all the token holders of, I don't know, Zorbs or something. If I have a bunch of Zorbs, show me other people who have Zorbs. Even simpler ones. There's so many features that you're going to be able to create here that are exciting. I know when we first started talking about the project, before I had access to the app, long before, I was saying, you know, maybe focus on like NFT Alpha, which there are other tools out there that cover. But what's interesting about Interface, as it is today at least, is it's much broader. It's not even just strictly on-chain actions. It's things like, potentially like snapshot votes or signing on multi-sigs. Things that happen off-chain, but that have some relationship to this public wallet address that you can access publicly. So it's really not just on-chain data. It's really more like on-chain identity. and then what you do with that, that anybody can see via some API, via snapshot or what have you that Interface can access and surface. So it's interesting. I guess I just want to give people a little bit, a summary, a little bit of what it looks like in case they haven't seen it. It looks kind of like Twitter. If every single tweet on Twitter was an action taken by a wallet that you follow. So it's like follow model, ether scan is kind of the really simple stripped down way of describing it. And it's on iOS and Android. I haven't played with the Android one yet, but you've told me that it's actually feature complete relative to the iOS one and maybe even ahead in some respects.

Wijuwiju: Yes, that is true. We're all for inclusivity.

Anna: Sorry, I just have to say that sometimes our Android developer works faster than our iOS developer. That's why there is the...

Nicholas: Competition.

Anna: There are differences, yeah.

Wijuwiju: But last time, last feature we released, like Noisysave, we kind of first time we tried to make it like as an improper like feature release. So we kind of synchronized them, published them to the, all the beta test at the same time. And then they released. also like a small preview video which was pretty like cool compared to what we used to do initially, just dropping some screen recordings of interface.

Nicholas: I love the preview video, but I want some like pump up music in the background. It felt like such an energetic video. I was like, wow, this could actually be a kind of popular video for people getting excited about Web3 Builders during the bear market. It's exciting to see. I think that's part of what makes me excited about this project. Obviously, I love the app, which is what gets me excited primarily. But second of all, seeing you develop it like in real time is pretty exciting. Are you both having fun building it right now?

Anna: Me, definitely, because like while designing these things, I learned so much about the space and you know, about how those things actually work. And then I try to comprehend them and design them in such a way that a person who does not comprehend them that well yet, would do that. So that's like, I'm having a lot of fun, definitely.

Nicholas: Awesome. Yeah, maybe you could talk a little bit more about what the design process is like for this, both from your perspective as feeling fresh to Web3, but also just generally, like. what is it like designing a project like this? Is it, how do you manage all the possibilities and what's the process like?

Anna: It's definitely chaotic because we come up with new features daily, if not hourly, and then we get requests from you, from them, from others. So yeah, there's a lot of work and a lot of changes because there are obviously some technical limitations that we have to take into account at least at this stage. But yeah, what we do, we look at the common UX patterns that already exist in apps like Twitter, in, I don't know, Instagram, whatever. We try to use them in some ways that are already familiar to our users, but also adapt them to Web3 space.

Nicholas: Got it. So my perception from playing with the test flight version on iOS, which anybody who's listening to this can go and bother them on their Twitter or their website and sign up for the beta, no doubt. But my perception is that you're starting by indexing everything that's happening on chain and maybe importing some API-related data, and then you have all these transactions and by default, they're tagged as did something, this kind of generic something happened. And then over time, you're going through and refining the display of these generic undefined transactions and creating custom UI that makes that particular type of transaction look really nice in the interface. Is that something like what the process is like?

Wijuwiju: So it's like we begin with plain site. We have some generalized decoders to decode certain pieces. For example, all the ERC20, ERC721s, and LLC55s, all the transfers that we can support. We wrote some certain algorithms that basically enable to show what was the importance of the transfer within this application. So some of the things like NFT swaps and such means they work out of the box because they're following certain standards and it's pretty easy to detect based on certain parameters. Then what you mentioned regarding did something, this is basically undefined the name of the function. So right now, we're only supporting the function called signature. So this is like a 4-8-bit of initial, 4-8-bytes of data you're calling when you're calling any contract. And so we're kind of just labeling those. So it's like a 4-byte. if you don't know this, you know this registry by what the guys name, but there is like a registry of all the human readable formats of these 4-bytes. So it's like approval all those kind of things but we're kind of making them in past sense and more like into it even better readability.

Nicholas: That's 4-byte.directory if anyone is curious. So if you go into this 4-byte.directory you can put in the first 4-bytes of any transaction the data passed with the transaction on chain on any EVM chain at least and it'll show you what the name of the function is that you called. And this is how things like EtherScan show you if someone hit mint on a transaction what they're doing in the background is just decoding using this 4-byte directory which maps all of the first 4-bytes of input data to the function name that it represents on the contract.

Wijuwiju: Exactly. So yeah, we wanted to take a step further and just have it even more readable. so from what is happening and then eventually we'll lead to even more because some things like approvals and others like let's say if you interact with Uniswap everything is multi-call. so it's like a generalized function call so there's just passes. so if you're adding liquidity removing liquidity doing swap it's all multi-call. so we're kind of right now still having did something for the Uniswap but we're already like thinking of the next version how we're going to implement. so once we go inside the transaction and not just by the signature call but actually what actually happened and then we'll introduce things like for example if you approve zero it means you revoked right? Or if you made a liquidity it shouldn't be just multi-call. it should be saying that you added liquidity to Uniswap and there's like another depth of level when we'll migrate and enrich the readability of the action that was happening in the chain. but yeah there is a lot of labeling there and we really hope that eventually we'll get this to the public so that it will be open for contributions and that any other platform any other wallet will be able to kind of bootstrap the readability of those because we perceive a lot of things that we're doing like decoding labeling as public goods. and also we believe this should be transparent because it requires a lot of trust. because for example if we label some protocol as in like affiliated with Uniswap so if you go to interface we don't say that you swap on some unreadable name contract address. we're kind of linking this contract address to the platform that it affiliates with. so it just says really nicely with the Uniswap logo that you have swapped on Uniswap or Sushi or you deposited to Aave etc. so here it's kind of the user now kind of have to believe that we're not lying etc. and this shouldn't be the case because it should be all be transparent and public. but we're kind of iterating a lot and changing things. so yeah right now it's a lot of things that we build are kind of closed doors but we believe they should be open and in many cases it's actually even not scalable to let's say label everything within a small product team even how good it is or even if it grows etc. things like such models that don't work. for example it's like with Encyclopedia when Wikipedia grew and Microsoft at that time it was like it just died out because it's impossible to keep up. and maybe one good example like I really like within the Web3 space is an analytical platform Dune. it enables anyone to write queries and build their own indexing. so anyone can just write their own index any contract and make sense of what's actually happening. where is the value or whatever you're trying to make sense of? it's like a tool for anyone to participate. so we're kind of That's Dune analytics you're talking about?

Nicholas: Yeah maybe you could explain a little bit in what ways Dune is open and in what ways Dune is closed because it is sort of their own platform right?

Wijuwiju: Yeah so from perspective of building on top so they kind of aggregate and make everything SQL into a SQL format so they can basically having huge databases and everything and making indexing entire chains and thus enabling other builders to write SQL queries on top. so if you want to build like write a query what are the balance token holder balance for any specific address ERC20 or anything like that literally just go. you can see different dashboards etc. you can see what the person is all public everyone can just fork each other and build on top of each other etc. and that's kind of flourish makes the ecosystem flourish and a lot of things that could be built with like even without the knowledge of the SQL language and so they are like centralized entity from perspective of indexing and aggregating and etc. but it's probably impossible to do it other way around for such amount of data. for example there's graph that tries to do it in decentralized nature but the data availability is really split between various contracts protocols and indexers. so if you want to build have a general access to everything I think there is such a limitation that it has to be kind of centralized because the chain itself is not very indexable and you can't really say like can I can show me all the token holders of this NFT collection? because it has to be derived from certain either events or traces or it has to be kind of build up from the history because chain only holds the current data within the latest block right.

Nicholas: so to give people a little summary basically if you want to find things like who are the prior owners of this NFT that's not something that you can just ask say Metamask to go and ask the current state of the blockchain right now who are the prior owners. it's something where you'd have to index every prior block and then use some kind of database that contains all that index data and look at it globally in order to derive that information and that's something that Dune offers. it's something that the graph offers in a decentralized way but it's not. you don't necessarily have the same data availability for the entirety of the chain history with the graph as you do. if you are doing it off chain like the way Dune does it or the way many different projects are doing it Zora is doing it. I guess you're thinking about doing your own index as well. I know Context is doing an index. I think Rainbow many different projects have thought about building their own indexer or sorting out if they're going to rely on somebody else or if they're build their own thing in house. are you thinking about building your own indexer or is it something that you prefer to rely on someone else for?

Wijuwiju: Oh yeah so we building it's already partially limited version is done. so as you probably those people have experienced you see often the new addresses that are being just added by the users. they don't have any activities etc. it's just because we're kind of doing lazy indexing. we don't go for entire chain and we only index those activities that are people and wallets that are introduced by the users themselves so that we don't stream too much infrastructure but we're already having parallel deployments and infrastructure for the entire chain. indexing so yeah we're definitely this is our priority right now because index everything token transfers build up the balances etc. because it will. first of all if you build in house certain things it enables you a lot more fine tuning building features fine tuning to what you need your actual needs etc. for your product needs and so on. so yeah this is what we are doing. and just going back to what we discussed previously having a suggestion engine for you to suggest similar people that are having the same token holdings that requires you kind of have to know what are the token holders for recommendation engine. you kind of have to rely on those things. eventually I think the space where we live will evolve into such extent that a lot of things that will be living on different protocols decentralized networks such as for example social graphs. right now we build social graphs internally and it's just like stored in postgres. so the people you follow. so it's really like same as web 2. so it's like you don't really control. you can retrieve it easily but the end user doesn't really control compared to like for your asset.

Nicholas: okay. so I want to ask Ana what's driving your design thinking aside from just making things simple and discoverable for people? where do you think the design of interface is going like? ultimately? do you imagine people might be able to make their own transactions from the interface app or do you think it's more strictly for discoverability? do you have any ideas about notifications going forward? I'm curious how you think about the design a little bit more.

Anna: most of what you've mentioned just now is already being designed so stay tuned. coming soon. we're definitely thinking about integrating some kind of in-app activity. so it's not just discovering stuff but actually doing some actions so buying NFTs participating in auctions swapping trading whatever because then we could use it as our monetization model and somehow get some kind of commission from that which is also always useful when you talk to investors to explain how you're going to monetize that. besides that notifications definitely yes. as I said it's being developed now because we see so many opportunities in that. so not just if somebody followed you or if somebody performed a transaction or you performed a transaction yourself but also if we integrate other protocols for instance foundation or Zorro whatever and if something's happening

Nicholas: on their

Anna: site we could also notify users within the interface so that could be because

Nicholas: this is a big problem for people actually to come at it from a slightly different angle. I was noticing the other day that you pull up the NFT transaction metadata much faster than other options. so I made I forget what I did. I minted something or I purchased I think some lonely pops. the floor was like 25 bucks or something and I bought a few of them and they showed up right away in interface and I was really happy to see them because my website is a images and I wanted to see all the things that I collected right away. so I found myself doing this thing which I'm doing more and more. also it happens in other kinds of transactions like limit orders on matcha I. those are being indexed currently. but these kind of transactions where you maybe set it with low gas or it's a signature for a listing on an NFT marketplace or something like that and you don't know if it's not something that's going to go through immediately either because it has low gas or it was just a signature like giving permission for something to happen and then I get the notification later on maybe the same day maybe in the future about my own wallet. so I'm not only following other people's wallets I end up actually following my own wallet on interface. so it seems like there's all kinds of other information that I'm going to be looking at interface for and I even get them. I'm a dork and I have an Apple watch so I even get the notifications on my Apple watch. currently I haven't yet turned it off. luckily I get them silently. but it seems like there's all kinds of activities that are happening that I'm otherwise not aware of. unless you sign up for I don't know ether scan email notifications or something clunky like that where interface can actually be something like the notification layer that is missing for a lot of web 3 stuff.

Wijuwiju: So what I think Anna is also mentioning regarding like integrating custom notification specific platform so for example of let's say ENS right so you'll get notified when you're in is about ENS is about to expire. so we're talking about foundation. when you get outbidded or you have received bid you will also get notified when like we're talking about open serial no source of marketplaces same with that. so when you get bids etc. you will get kind of those kind of notification. so we're kind of trying to also take the essence of what these protocols are doing entities we're working with and then build notifications on top of that integrate. but this is like the future and actually you're one of the lucky ones because I think you're following yourself right. so you you sign in with another wallet and you're following yourself and right now it's like it's. we don't actually support this. new wallets I think we don't don't notify for your own wallet but this is coming in the big update that I think will be next week.

Nicholas: I think it's because I have so many wallets. I'm logged in with whatever wallet is on my phone which I hope gets changed in the future. so I can log in with a Metamask wallet or a hardware wallet would be cool although it doesn't really matter I guess. basically right now the model is that the data of who you're following is associated with the wallet that's connected. but besides that given that you can't initialize any transactions it doesn't really matter which wallet you're logged in with. aside from that the people you're following are associated with it right now.

Wijuwiju: And also yeah well there will be a lot more going forward. we're like looking to interact with the chain. We'll probably start with something simple as in like setting up your avatar or ENS or buying it. So this will probably be our first right feature that will actually interact with the chain itself and then we'll build on top from that. but maybe I could also shine a light a little bit on what we're kind of we're seeing like how the product will evolve and yeah.

Nicholas: Absolutely I want to get into that. Just before we get into that I see Dame is in the audience we were talking all of us a little bit on Twitter about how interface really exposes the people who don't have the avatar record set for their ENS. Because the profile pictures in interface app are drawn directly from the ENS text records. you can set your avatar on ENS and I think that makes perfect sense. It's like the first kind of right transaction because it's so painful seeing that default. Is it a sad face or a happy face? I don't remember which one the default is but the interface.

Anna: We call it a sad Georgian.

Nicholas: Sad Georgian. Okay. Yes. Because the don't ask why. It has multiple states like the app icon right now. is the happy one right? Or it's sort of mildly happy.

Anna: You know even though it's mildly happy it still looks sad. so it's sad or more sad. Like sadder. Sadder.

Nicholas: Sadder. I see. Yeah you can imagine variations on that for illustrating what's happened in the app. if I don't know a transaction failed or something or if the market is down I don't know.

Wijuwiju: Exactly. Yes. Very scalable face.

Nicholas: So okay so we were going to shed some light on what the future of the app is. Before we say that I wanted to get into one other thing we kind of touched on a little bit which is I'm pushing I want wallet aggregation but it doesn't sound like that's the future for interface. I'm curious how you think about you know people who have multiple wallets or what the data? how you think about associating the data between not only who's connected but also like I know Dame was mentioning the other day I think Dame's art wallet or vault wallet I can't remember. I think it was the art wallet for the minting that Dame does. So if you follow Dame's main wallet you don't get to see when there's a new NFT drop. So how do you think about this wallet? question people with multiple wallets?

Wijuwiju: Yes so my understanding it's like with Twitter accounts or any other accounts. so you have a different identity. so we kind of perceive the wallet as an identity. so it's like as an DNS etc. It has activity it's like your reputation. it's what you do it's what you possess and what you hold. so it's like a standalone sufficient entity. that is like making actions and so on and one person might be if you're having multiple of those like one person might be interested in certain actions that you because I understand a lot of people like splitting different kind of actions depending on what they do. so like one for aping into NFTs and to I don't know not to be like a. for example I have an NFT flipping account that I actually even made deposit to it through the tornado cache so that nobody would know what's that. what stupid shit I'm doing there. so that's like a completely different set of walls but within that people will be able to just to not log out and log in but rather just switch between your various wallets. and yeah I'm not fully understanding how does like. linking various accounts and then see would really make sense from perspective of aggregating as you mentioned.

Nicholas: yeah so I'm gonna make it even worse for you because what if in the future I change wallets? I associate my ENS with a new wallet so I'm following. in the current interface model I'm following the actual wallet not the ENS. it looks like I'm following the ENS but I'm actually following the wallet underneath and if the ENS changes what wallet it's associated with I guess maybe maybe there'll be a new whatever you call them sort of widget component for the transaction to reassociate the ENS with something new and give me an option to follow the newly associated wallet or something because I'm gonna lose the person.

Wijuwiju: basically good question but it's like also what if you're somebody possesses your ENS then it's like your identity will be gone and you will have to kind of get to the people and tell them that this is no longer Nicholas it's like not you it's. somebody is possessed it.

Nicholas: so yeah okay so that would be more like the Mike Damaris style like using a ENS as your ENS wallet totally temporarily and then ultimately giving it to somebody else. you don't want necessarily all of your followers to transition to that new person sort of depends if it's like like. there was this question when was it 4156 punk 4156 sold their punk. is that I forget who it was but I think it was them that you know. do they keep the Twitter handle or should it go with the punk? and ultimately you know I don't know. does the if you sell the ENS do you keep the followers or do they go with the ENS? I guess in the current model they'll stay with the actual wallet address underneath.

Wijuwiju: yeah I have to be honest I haven't thought about this so I don't really have good questions for you. like this field of course I haven't really thought about this. so how it should be from design perspective should be handled and how it should look because from what we're initially kind of understood is like the world. is that like the core piece of everything? so it's like you follow wallets default has a reputation as activities as tokens. it's and it's. everything revolves around the wallet. so that was our perception. and yeah maybe we haven't yet committed enough thought processes to conceptualize what would be the correct approach.

Nicholas: it's tricky because it because any NS could be stolen or sold or it could be upgrading your wallet security or something I don't know. Anna what do you think about about wallet aggregation? do you see what I mean about people with multiple wallets wanting to have lots of followers? what do you think?

Anna: yeah totally makes sense although I have no idea how to implement that. but I just wanted to mention that we actually had this issue already because I had my wallet compromised so I had to change like I had to have new wallet and to transfer by ENS to the new wallet. and then I think we had some issues to with me connecting to interface because it was really it was still thinking that my old wallet had my my ENS right.

Wijuwiju: so that's it's our buck. we fixed it was a buck. I think we should.

Nicholas: okay okay okay I want to jump into the future of interface and alpha drop zone. but I wanted to say anybody who's in the audience if you have questions please feel free to make a request and I'll bring you up and you can ask questions. because I think one thing that's really cool about the story like I said is that it's sort of unfolding before our eyes. it's like you know you don't get to see inside of. I don't know ether scans development processes as much. maybe you did back in the day but I wasn't around. so it's very cool that sort of the users and the builders are right in the same place. it feels very web 3 me.

Wijuwiju: for me it's very. I just thought on this last point is that for example if those who are not familiar but we raised like our initial funding from mirror crowdfund and where we published the pitch. basically it's like the entire idea at that point and we wanted to be like fully transparent straight from the beginning just to communicating what we want to build why we want to build it how we want to build it and so on. and yeah we were focused a lot on the product so we wanted to ship so we were kind of fairly quiet and but now that we have kind of have the application for people to use we can hope that this could be seared from like all together. so people who are using not just the users themselves but they're actually becoming like a part of this and then we can they can signal virtual what things to decode what things are interest. that's actually happening right now because for example for the early people who joined the interface those did something what this like default message for the like. we literally go to this person activity and see like if they want 100% of this I think it means like this person introduced a lot of different contracts interaction that we haven't even seen before and then we kind of try to decode everything for this person and then so that it's like for him or her it becomes really readable and we kind of underneath where this is what we're doing. but we would maybe if we communicate this better eventually it will be like more and provide tools for the people to kind of next because we're like super transparent on this side like we have a discord and everyone can provide feedback suggest so if somebody says they want to have like a syndicate integration or juice box or something else more readable agnostic saves etc. we we're limited on resources. but like we are trying to build how many people are you so far? yeah so we just grew to fight.

Nicholas: we used to be four and a few weeks ago another black engine engineer just joined us and if you don't mind is the team global or where where you guys find yourselves in the world.

Wijuwiju: so originally we're Russians and but we are kind of now dispersed across the globe. we're on and I we're right now in Georgia.

Nicholas: pretty easy awesome very cool. so I guess just in line with those questions before we jump to sort of the future of interface etc. so you did this mirror crowdfund. it's interface dot mirror dot xyz. people want to check out the the posts and I know you're also writing which people can collect as NFTs also regular updates on mirror. but you're also doing sort of fundraising activities and I think there's some some thought that this will be a Dow or at least partially crowdfunded. is there anything you can disclose on that? or if people are interested and they are excited about the app how can they keep up with you and possibly contribute to get involved?

Wijuwiju: so we believe this is going to be like a protocol and decentralized like with the token and such so that people can some people that users will be kind of once we introduce a little more writing to the chain. so it will probably make more sense to comprehend what we're envisioning in the future. so let's say when I'm initially mentioning that we're trying to solve readability and discoverability. the latter part we believe is super super important because for example if right now you visit the profile you can see that NFTs tokens saves and activities right within this wallet. but in the future we'll the more we integrate and such you will be able to see what this person is selling. so if that's a DJ and or some artist like musician has a concert or maybe it's dropped new album etc. or an artist or it's a gallery that is curating some artists etc. through the protocol like event protocol or like some NFT or it's 0xv4 just a listing for a product one of the NFTs etc. you will be able to see within the profile those kind of active listings or whatever is happening. and because you're following the person like because of that person because you're listening to his music or her music or you're like the art or you following the community for certain things you'll be able to see those kind of things directly. and that's this is where the discoverability actually like unfolds because by enabling people to see like a peer-to-peer kind of what other person is etc. you will be able to then interact with it. so let's take for example 0xv4 and protocol that enables like a peer-to-peer swap of NFT. so then you can immediately imagine that you don't really have to go to NFT marketplace. that essentially provides discoverability right. so it provides you the ability to find different collections different like look at rare rareties trades etc. but a lot of human actions. and this is our hypothesis how people so like one person loves this music like this person's music. so it's really interesting like to buy the ticket for the concert and then by having that in the interface and be able to just to follow this RSS you can transact directly and thus you wouldn't have to go through the marketplace fees like let's say take example of open seat 2.5 and then you will be able to transact directly between the two and you don't need the marketplace to facilitate that and then the interface will just inject as a much limited order provider of chain or on-chain and then it will be like instead of paying 2.5 you'll be able to like to pay like 0.5 or something depending on what would be the feasible for the ecosystem and then all this earnings will go to the token holders of interface and then those who will be staking. they will be getting rewarded and so it's going to be like these people will be owning piece of interface and then those who are using it though will be able to discover opportunities, discover content, participate in various things, interact, purchase, swap, etc. etc. etc. and that's basically it.

Nicholas: Interesting. Okay so it's kind of what you're envisioning right now which I imagine is still you know changing all the time is that it'll work. something like looks rare but rather than being a specific marketplace that's generating fees you're the interface that is inserting almost like a Metamask swap like very small fee maybe even smaller than Metamask swap and then socializing that revenue across people who have the interface token staked and they get the interface token I guess by making a contribution something like a juice box or a mirror crowdfund kind of thing. so I can make a let's say let's call it a donation to interface and then I can get this token that I can stake and can earn me a little bit of revenue based on all the activity that's going on when people click buttons and send transactions that are transferring ETH through the app. is that basically a good summary?

Wijuwiju: Yeah I would just emphasize on things of like having like transacting let's say ETH through the matching people. right. so by discovery you will be able to match people and then they will be able to transact and discover things that they're of interest without having like a. yeah but the model is like. regarding the financial tokenomics model is yeah it's reduced between the revenue of the protocol among the token holders. so it's like the ever waiting of Uniswap's flip switch etc. yeah I think Luxor is already doing that. there's a bunch of others that we just reduced to between the revenue among the token holders. so yeah that's essentially cool.

Nicholas: and do you think so? I guess and some portion of that would also be going to some kind of treasury that can pay the developers and keep the maintenance of the all the products happening?

Wijuwiju: Yeah exactly so there will be like once we get we haven't yet finalized how we would like to proceed with it. it's like going retrospective like you know most of the like ENS, Gitcoin and other airdrops. they're kind of optimism and so on. they have approach of like raising private capital having building development etc. and then the retrospectively dropping based on usage based of certain actions and once they get to the phase of dropping the token then they kind of redistribute among different like let's say groups of people whether it's investors the core team, contribution, ecosystem, community, users and so on. so this is like something like retrospectively. so you have more some would control and then you can fine tune etc. and then there's another way. it's like more like a juice box model when you have token straight away and then you kind of having different areas to redistribute the revenues redistribute the income how to say investments and so on among various parties stakeholders. so we haven't yet finalized how we would like to proceed and this is like will be quite surely will make sense of what's the best way to proceed. but yeah we're having like an experimenting and going along and having like full transparency and giving all users and all community members have been like an ability to invest and be part of like the interface right from the scratch. hence when we published the crowdfunding to the everyone to be able to participate in every single let's say in traditional it's like different grounds but yeah. so that's something to finalize the distributions and how to proceed whether it should be retrospective or straight away having it on.

Nicholas: so basically the current status is that there's no canonical interface token really. yet there is the mirror crowdfund token but there's also lots of NFTs floating around but still figuring it out. but headed towards this basic model I wanted to ask on behalf of KMACB Kevin McDonald to dig a little bit deeper in the open versus closed software and it sounds like this model that you're describing is one where you don't really need to keep any. it allows you to open source as much as possible because as much as makes sense basically because the there's an incentive layer on top of the software. that's something of a network effect around the use of the applications or whatever other interfaces you come up with for interface based on the tokens. that's not strictly dependent on being the only provider of this open source software so it should allow you to open source more. is that right exactly?

Wijuwiju: and this is like also whole goal as well to be open and etc. so just to maybe provide an example of how we see it in certain things for example like the clients that Android and IOS clients will be open and then a lot of data like that we are currently indexing and building our own indexing. they will be coming from various decentralized layers. let's say for example social graphs. there is different protocols like trying to solve social graphs on chain and off chain and affiliated with your public like cyber connect RSS3 lens protocol and so on. I mean this social graphs building so that the end user is actually having control and custody over what people they follow. here is actually one. I will not talk about this now but there is another really cool design what's called the problem that we I think we have an idea how to solve it and we can solve it. but yeah so there is the social graphs that live across all various places. so Twitter is your social graph as well and eventually with the blog sky where we expect them to decentralize those pieces so that it will be permissionless and the end user will own them. and going back to the open source part that you asked is that eventually if we are talking about token and then stakeholders are receiving the part of the revenue we would like so if interface as in like what the core team is building and so on at a certain point decides to change the fee of what is like the interface platform chain let's say charges for NFT swaps between the users or something else then there will be like a. it will be first be on chain governance so they will be token holders already that but that's it because we're kind of restrained from decentralization. so we entities of iTunes and so on so that there is like no way to decentralize them. application. you can just fork and just host your own website on IPFS because it has to go through the iTunes on Apple Store etc. so there that is. decentralization comes from having entire code base open so anyone can actually fork then go into and publish their own interface change maybe different things and something else maybe different engine for recommendation maybe various other features and then we believe that this will be the net benefit for the space and ourselves because healthy competition is super like beneficial for us and for the users as well. so I don't know if it's awesome.

Nicholas: yeah that's very exciting. so people can basically keep up with the mirror posts jump into the discord and hang out and talk. hopefully get into the beta. I know you've had like an explosive interest in the beta. is that right?

Wijuwiju: so that's really cool. yeah there was a lot of applications. I think it was in. it was 700 before and now it's 2100.

Nicholas: wow and you're doing the manually right. you're verifying humanity manually.

Anna: we're doing it sometimes Beatrice doing it sometimes me and I have to say I really enjoy doing it because I check Twitter profiles I see who that person is doesn't really matter. you know we white list practically anyone. but as long as you have some transactions and you're not a bot or we are so that's fine. but you know it's kind of like really close. I don't know like intimate approach and also when we add a person and like we get notification from this court to have a secret channel when a new user answer enters the app we get notified and then I go and follow that user in case nobody else follows him or her. so that's kind of sweet.

Nicholas: I think I love this. yeah I mean I want to hear more about this because this feels very much like you know web3 crypto is got their DMs open and it's a very personal kind of user research by being directly in contact with the people who are your earliest users. it's it's not totally foreign in startups but it feels very central to building something that you want not just customers but people to actually fall in love with.

Anna: yeah it's super sweet to DM people and actually you know hear positive feedback from them again. finally I got I'm so excited you know loving the app etc.

Nicholas: so it's that's great. do you guys have plans? I know we talked a little bit about. I heard people want to like. I think was we do saying that you wanted to like posts. I know sometimes I want to share a link to a post. obviously it doesn't really make sense given how few people have the app right now. but how do you think about sharing? because I'm also partial to the idea of like. the meme is maybe stronger if there's limited access and it's this like analog hole by which people are taking screenshots and sharing. I think that's like actually potentially more medically strong than giving actual share links. how do you think about going forward? you know how do people access interface outside of being inside of the app itself.

Wijuwiju: so there's I think two person. the question one is regarding like in the app like social interaction like adding reactions and so on. so we're like possibly researching this field because we would like to introduce like ability to through the decentralized private messaging protocols to basically talk chat to people and each other within the interface so that you can talk to the wallet. so it's like a block scan but like based on some private thing then same with the reactions or like having the ability to kind of attach to a transaction certain reactions. we also want to kind of bootstrap those kind of features on top of decentralized protocols so that we don't actually and commenting as well so that it's like we don't store we don't possess it's like the end user has the all the all the ownership of that. so that is regarding with the social interaction the actual social interaction within them in the first app that we kind of looking to introduce in the future.

Nicholas: So this is something where essentially like the private key with which I logged in will gate like. maybe you could send me a message that only I could read. so interface itself won't have access to the messages basically?

Wijuwiju: Yeah so it will be like peer-to-peer encrypted so that we won't store anything we'll have any access so that we just integrate like there's like few protocols that are building those and we'll just bootstrap. on top of that and this is like a beautiful nature of web 3 is that for example we don't have any identity we don't have anything. we're just using wallets and for identity we're using NS. so it's like we're just utilizing existing protocols and datas and we're just bootstrapping a whole set of features on top of that and also adding adoption to let's say NS. so it's like super nice because it's like permissionless building. we don't ask anyone for a big API keys for example or we can just build and data is already there and we just play around with it see what's useful what can bring value to us and to it's not just us because initially when we were building it was just us but now we have people who are using the app.

Nicholas: so it's pretty cool that people want to set their NS avatars because of what it looks like in interface. so it's already having an impact on increasing engagement with sort of deeper features of NS and presumably that's going to happen all over the place. I'm excited to see more of the snapshot stuff and contributions to different platforms. Okay so I cut you off. there was a second part which is sharing off of the app. how are you thinking about that?

Wijuwiju: So one thing we were thinking that would be really cool apart from sharing your own profile so it would be like maybe some sort of you'd be able to share what's it called any transaction or any profile or any safe etc. and there will be like a web view. so there will be like readable. so instead of like sending somebody an Etherscan transaction page you'll be sending them interface transaction page. that will be kind of mirroring what is shown within the app. so it will be super human friendly and readable and then you will be able to just share it across the web and if you open up from the mobile it will just deep link to it to the actual component within the application or the screen. but this is we're not doing it yet because we have like. this will only make sense once it's in public so it's not past the test flight. so it's like anyone can actually then go and download the app. so that's when this like virality will be able to make sense to share and not just virality but I think it will introduce a lot of value. if you just drop somebody readable purchase of NFT and build back the person purchased this for this much and etc. it don't make sense.

Nicholas: Yeah selfishly what I want is to be able to share a transaction and then hopefully gain some followers. so it would be I don't know. that seems a little bit complicated. if people are let's say looking at the like a tweet on their computer and where they're not logged into interface I'm not sure how that how that a follow could propagate back to their client until there is some kind of total browser based view for the logged in state. but yeah I think part part of what makes me want to be able to share links is I want to defeat Dame on that leaderboard.

Wijuwiju: but we can add the one within the web view without even having fully fleshed like writing capabilities and etc. we could just add the right big button to download the app and it will let you download and follow it.

Nicholas: So if you don't but let's say I was on a computer and I accessed that I would still have to like airdrop it to my phone or something right?

Wijuwiju: Yeah probably go through the stores.

Nicholas: Interesting. I wonder what the best way would be. it seems kind of. I guess the best way is just to make it so desirable to follow me that people will go through the pain of transferring it.

Wijuwiju: Or having a web version but that requires more people.

Nicholas: Yeah that's a whole thing. Yeah. Maybe I'm thinking about what Snapchat did in this domain I guess like scannable QR codes and things. Obviously eventually some kind of web version. but that seems like a whole job. and part of what makes interface so cool is that it does have the notifications. it has all the benefits of being a mobile app and it's with me everywhere. I still think that's a great choice and so unusual in the space. most things are so web based and so desktop oriented.

Wijuwiju: Yeah this was like our understanding. it's the nature of the information should be like that is coming towards you. It's just one of the pains that we can experience by participating in various protocols and governance and so on is that you always end up going to various platforms to obtain the information instead of the information coming to you and then be able to like make sense of it once it's like arrived to you. So it's like one of the things why we built like we decided to go with mobile. So it's like super. it's always like if you want it comes to you. basically if somebody made a snapshot proposal or something you'll be able to get notified for that so that you don't have to actively go every week to different governance protocols or seeing like what people have purchased and so on. What tokens is new and we actually I think I don't know. I personally I kind of like done some actions a lot of action actually based off what I see in the interface feed. So for example I saw somebody claim like Noah Zinister from the Uniswap. he claimed Forta and I was like messaging straight away like what is this Forta thing? and then I ended up understanding that I was contributing some open Web3 repositories and I got that drop as well and they were dropping to the GitHub contributors and actually our entire team got dropped thousands of Forta for the other thing similar to the open optimist drop but they had the criteria of having multi-sig signature. So this is like how we knew about this Forta thing just through this. We wouldn't find out about it any other way I think. At least at that time.

Nicholas: It seems like there's a lot of potential for the messaging thing around this where you can be like see a transaction and then message it to a friend. what is this message? directly to the person who executed the transaction? tell me what it is.

Wijuwiju: Yeah for sure. So it's like I don't know we envision it's going to be like two parts. I think eventually it's going to be decentralized some sort of like. let's say maybe we chat with everything like the messaging wallet within built in and the old but old but booster of top of decentralized with three technologists and protocols and interfacing with all the decentralized DeFi and all other things and on the other side of the kind of that is powering it all. it will be more like we perceive maybe something like I don't know powerful ability to kind of in OS or something like that. So the model like the recent idea was for example if you're familiar with notion or like any type it enables you to kind of build on top of different primitives. so like they have components pages you can link databases different pieces of types and there's not a platform any type. that kind of goes even beyond that and provides your ability to kind of build any type. so you can like define your own type let's say a book or an article and then you can like put that into the database have the relation between those and you can basically record and have structure to any sort of pieces of information and whatever activities agendas and so on. So eventually from this perspective of how this thing is powered like we have labels we have decoders we have all sort of things that is like part of social and et cetera and views the components that are like readable and you see like this is like the component of NFT this is like component collection and so on and so on one side this is what I meant like the interface itself will be like the front facing user experience like wallet messaging P2P being able to purchase interact with all sort of protocols discovering people finding all sort of stuff reading articles on mirror and so on. and on the other side is for us it will be like people. decoders will be coming to this. they will be views with the components will be built up by the people so there will be different UIs bootstrap on top of the data. this is more like three years I think into the future but I think that's maybe. that's how maybe that's how it's going to play out. things change so I don't bet on this but it's just just few things that we can foresee.

Nicholas: maybe so the three year future you're envisioning is one where the people are submitting decodings of transaction and other API related data associated with wallets. and what was the other piece?

Wijuwiju: yeah so one is the data provision. so like the social graph will come from different social graphs the feeds activities will come from somebody like our sestry. then taking token possessions will come from another third party. then somebody will be building like an engine algorithm suggestion. so there'll be different thousand teams that will be take publicly available tokens and social graphs and build the suggest engine because they're super good in AI and we're not because we're just like iterating. but you'll be able to within the interface you will switch between different algorithm providers for your suggestion. so instead of relying on web 2 a single like let's say like the monopoly of the feed that is basically shown to you by the provider this platform in web 3 this will be different. entities will be having competences in various of this field because the data itself lives on chain or publicly available and it's self custodial and it's permissionless building. that means that all sort of different people can then build on top of that and compose and for example in social area there will be lots of like engines to suggest you different people different pieces different are different. so based of things you do and there will be like different providers of those things and there will be like those. there will be companies there will be different entities. they'll provide those and within the interface you will be able to kind of integrate those. and going back to sorry just there was a slight thing that is simply just told us. and then going back to the part of people submitting decoders and etc. this is like on data side and also then there is also the view side so that if you want to kind of build the views and kind of compose different so it's like having ability to kind of build what's what was like the raw data and then turn it into like components that are let's say this is like a token transfer this is they'll be like. this is like a text piece this is like an image and then so the U.S. will be also driven by the communities themselves. so maybe I don't know exactly how it's going to play out on different platforms but you can imagine that there'll be a lot of for the same data still be lots of different U.S the trend like they'll be showing those kind of things and in different ways and then it could be maybe like a public library of components. that will be kind of. yeah it's a bit hard to imagine but I think any type is kind of is like the closest to this is I think it's super cool approach. they kind of went even further than notion and that kind of aspect.

Nicholas: I think this is any type dot IO. yes cool I'm gonna have to check this out. all right I think we kind of covered though the most of the subjects. I don't know if there's anything we didn't talk about that you wanted to bring up. either we do or Anna. one last question I had was I floated this idea a little while ago about you know maybe if you've made a donation and you've used the app in the last 24 hours that your icon could glow or something? I think it's in this general area of like flexing within the interface app based on your maybe depth of connection to the interface project and also maybe your activity on chain. it also makes me think about this. this whole setting your avatar thing definitely using interface makes you want to have an avatar but I think if it continues to grow in the way that it has been and I imagine it could be I could see actually wanting to change my avatar really kind of frequently maybe equally as frequently as I update my Twitter avatar with getting new PFP projects and things. how do you think about the users in interface and how they I guess relate to one another in terms of this kind of flex potential?

Anna: I think we're definitely taking this into account and already have some designs done. we'll be dropping an NFT soon and those who hope that NFT their profiles will be a little bit different. so yeah all the other users could see that that person is you know special. he or she holds an interface of their team. Interesting.

Nicholas: Okay I'm gonna have to keep my eyes open for that and I'm gonna have to reread again the mirror post because I think there was some alpha in there. I saw I saw one cool thing in there a hundred. there's a 300% increase in discord members and whatever the past period is putting you in the top 75 communities on guild XYZ which is a kind of interesting stat and you can go see. well the top communities are on guild. so it's very exciting to see the growth of interface and I'm always happy to talk to you about the project.

Wijuwiju: Yeah just to add if you read the article look at the header image there might be something there.

Nicholas: I see edition 01 interesting. Okay so if if people want to catch up with interface it's interfaced with the D app on Twitter Discord. where else should they go?

Wijuwiju: Yeah our Twitter and Discord. you can also submit. if you're not inside yet you could submit an application and on the interface social and we are working through those then we. yeah I think that's about it. Discord we try to communicate everything through the Discord and also Twitter.

Anna: We also LinkedIn if you're into that kind of thing.

Nicholas: Wow.

Wijuwiju: We were just joking.

Nicholas: That's pretty funny. you're gonna be the biggest web 3 app on LinkedIn for sure.

Wijuwiju: Optimists have LinkedIn actually.

Nicholas: Really?

Anna: Gnosis is also quite active there.

Nicholas: I mean it's probably not silly like we can make fun of it but there probably is quite a bit of activity that happens based on what people are talking about on LinkedIn. Okay great so interface dot social check out the Discord etc. and I'd love to have you back on in a few months or something to catch up and see everything that's changed. things are moving so fast. it's very exciting.

Anna: Thank you. Thank you for supporting us tweeting about us. that helps a lot.

Wijuwiju: We can now say that we actually have certain level of revenue. so it's like as a process of stage of development of the application. we're not only post product we also post revenue because we sold to. if you guys don't know Nicholas and I think Anton bought our loaders within. so we like this like a component when in areas that are have not yet been developed and in future those will be probably like just loading pieces. so it's like within the application people that kind of land on this view where the loader is shown. they it's underneath this and it's like an NFT. so you can just kind of interact it with the same way with any other NFT. so you'll see that who is the token who is the holder etc.

Nicholas: Yeah I bought the dark mode version so I'm curious. I guess it'll be interesting. we'll see. hopefully the dark mode seems like dark mode. more people like dark mode I don't know. it'll be interesting though. Okay thank you so much Anna Wijoux for coming through and I'll talk to you soon and thanks everybody for coming through to listen. Thank you Hey thanks for listening to this episode of Web3 Galaxy Brain. To keep up with everything Web3 follow me on Twitter at Nicholas with four leading ends. you can find links to the topics discussed on today's episode in the show notes. podcast feed links are available at web3galaxybrain.com. Web3 Galaxy Brain airs live most Friday afternoons at 5pm Eastern Time 2200 UTC on Twitter Spaces. I look forward to seeing you there.