Web3 Galaxy Brain 🌌🧠

Nicholas: Before we get started, if you love this episode, please write a review for Web3 Galaxy Brain. Thank you. Welcome to Web3 Galaxy Brain. My name is Nicholas. Each week, I sit down with some of the brightest people building Web3 to talk about what they're working on right now. Today, I'm joined by Vivian Fung. Viv is the 23-year-old solo founder of Snowball, a Web3 DevTools provider focused on mobile apps and web apps. Snowball's first product, Igloo, will give developers a simple solution for SSO authentication, AA smart wallets, and on-ramping in one SDK. Igloo is currently in private alpha on Testnet. Prior to starting Snowball, Viv was co-founder of DORA, a multi-chain block explorer search engine, and she was an engineer on the Instagram feed team before that. In this conversation, Viv and I dive into the challenges facing mobile crypto app developers today, her approach to smart wallets, and her ambition to create the Vercell for mobile crypto devs. It's always fun getting to meet a dynamic and relentless founder like Viv, especially at such an early stage in the company's journey. Her persistence and enthusiasm are inspiring. I hope you enjoy the show. As always, this show is provided as entertainment and does not constitute legal, financial, or tax advice or any form of endorsement or suggestion. Crypto has risks, and you alone are responsible for doing your research and making your own decisions.

Vivian Phung: Hello.

Nicholas: Hey Viv, how's it going?

Vivian Phung: Good, good, really good. How are you?

Nicholas: I'm good. I'm glad we got this Twitter space working. We'll get back to who you are, but first, just briefly, what is Snowball?

Vivian Phung: Okay. Snowball is a, like a, like a, you can kind of think of us as a vertically integrated platform where we enable like authentication, account extraction, and on and off ramping in one SDK across a variety of different... So in Swift, React Native, and Kotlin, mobile-first company, and we do auto deploy to like the Google Play Store, Testnet, I mean Google Play Store, Apple App Store, and also like TestFlight. And then there's a bunch of variety of services that we'll also provide pretty early, but really, really excited about like, like, like bringing like an incredible mobile experiences to users and also like enabling developers to ship fast and shipping credible products.

Nicholas: Yeah, okay. So this lines up a lot with what I've been talking a lot about this new DApp stack. That's a AA wallet, passkeys, PWA on an L2, APPL for short. Yeah, yeah.

Vivian Phung: I love how you're trying to get that to like. take all. I applaud you and I hope it does. But you know, if it does, I owe you a beer.

Nicholas: Like, I think because it's annoying because people think that's maybe that's that's like Apple's ticker, but it's not actually it's APL, their ticker. So it's even more annoying. You know, it's like a TikTok where they don't tell you the ending for seven installments or what.

Vivian Phung: So anyway, it's like you're like waiting. You're like, damn, like, it's supposed to be fat. Like the whole point. Yeah, I get it.

Nicholas: I was gonna get annoyed. It's gonna become. I promise.

Vivian Phung: Yeah, yeah.

Nicholas: It's not the first. I've tried a bunch of other names, but it's the least offensive so far, I think. So so that stack. So a wallet, passkeys. to sign on that a wallet. You're accessing this via a PWA. And you're probably transacting on an L2. That's kind of where my head's been at. And we've had some conversations on this show with some folks about 7212 for maybe making passkeys something that can be decrypted directly inside of a smart contract. I'll talk to Privy, who are the wallet providers for FriendTech. Yeah, so so people can check out those shows. But, you know, the way I came to Snowball and iglootools.xyz, the demo, which people can check out, is just this idea of like passkeys, which are this new native replacement for passwords that everyone is adopting Apple, Microsoft, Google, absolutely everyone. And then those as a signer on an AA wallet with like a clean onboarding experience. So maybe could you just explain to people who haven't tried iglootools.xyz what happens if they go to that website step by step, so they understand what you're what you're making, basically?

Vivian Phung: Yeah, yeah. Okay, so let's let's first talk about like. what is like. passkeys has been around for a long time. Google has like pushed this for like years and years. Apple is finally adopting it in iOS 17. And standardly, I like in iOS 17, standardly passkeys is, it's just like a private key, public key share, like challenge, blah, blah, blah.

Nicholas: And but the thing is... It's familiar to people who have EVM wallets already, because it's like a private public key pair. But it's built into iOS, it's built into Chrome, it's built into Windows, is like the big difference.

Vivian Phung: Yes, the only like the biggest, the biggest challenge with like, yeah, okay, so yeah, so passkeys enables users to access their wallet in a familiar web to way, like without a password.

Nicholas: We should say just that passkeys for context is not just for crypto stuff. Passkeys is just the the new standard. The traditional tech industry and security experts are pushing as an alternative to username and password, which is pretty vulnerable for getting passwords and stuff. People reuse their passwords. So passkeys is trying to solve that by getting rid of passwords and just replacing it with this private public key pair, generate a private key on the device on the iPhone in your hand or Android phone in your hand, and then give the public key to the server so they can authenticate you in the but nobody has to give a password. It just sits on your phone and gets synced across all your devices. So that's kind of like the innovation of passkeys. But you're about to say like, it's not so obvious to just replace wallets with passkeys because maybe you can explain a little bit.

Vivian Phung: Yeah, so like, okay, like the way that web to is doing it, like, and generally, it's like this, this private key is generated on device in this passkey. And there's no way to export export this private key outside of it. And, and that creates a variety of problems. Like, let's say you lose your device, you lose access to your Apple ID, all this stuff. And there's like no backup. And, and generally, like there's like, there's, yeah, like, a lot of things.

Nicholas: The big difference is that Apple can't restore your account for you, if you lose your passkey, or it's depending on the setup, of course. But in the purest of passkey setups, you're the only one with the secret material. So you need to, but people will, you know, iCloud passkey chain, iCloud keychain will sync this between devices. But there's still some, you know, things to be ironed out in terms of cross platform, etc.

Vivian Phung: Yes, exactly. So like, for example, like if you are using Chrome on your. if you're using Chrome on your MacBook or Windows, it actually is synced locally, like your passkey is created locally, not synced to your password manager of that device. But if you're using Chrome, for example, on a iPhone or on an Android, it syncs to that respective password manager.

Nicholas: And so that is complicated. It's complicated for a developer who wants to just like put together something with passkeys right now. It's there's a lot of cracks in the connections between parts of the ecosystem.

Vivian Phung: Yeah. And it's all like how like, like MetaMask private key getting lost. Yeah, we can think about like, like, yeah, so yeah, so passkeys. So that's why we choose like an MPC passkey like implementation is so like, first off, okay, so ha ha ha, okay.

Nicholas: Why do you need multi party compute? What's the? what's the advantage?

Vivian Phung: Okay, so generally, what MPC is, is it enables like, multiple parties to collectively compute a function over a set of private inputs without revealing the inputs themselves. Simply put, like MPC requires multiple parties with a piece of the key to come together to collectively perform a task and without revealing their private key or their information to other parties. In our case, we use it to generate private public key pairs. And the lit network can use to it can be used to encrypt and decrypt signed and signed transactions.

Nicholas: Okay, so hold on. So I start by. I maybe want to. so I get to this, I wanted you to describe the page because I don't want to get too lost. I think it'll make more sense if it's described as a demo. So we arrive on the website. And there is an option to do what. what's the button?

Vivian Phung: Okay, the button is create.

Nicholas: Let me it doesn't matter what it's called. There's just a sign in with Apple. But yeah, basically, yeah.

Vivian Phung: Create a passkey new passkey. All right. And then you name your passkey. And this is a just like a general name that you're like, like client side that you're going to see this passkey named.

Nicholas: So if you're creating an account, like you could imagine if you were logging into Twitter this way, you would say, create an account. And you click the button. And then it says, What do you want to call the account? And then you give it a name, it doesn't really matter can be repeated across other people. It's not a username. It's just like a label for your device. Yes.

Vivian Phung: Okay, yes, exactly. And this label and is synced. I mean, this passkey can be used across whatever password manager it is synced to.

Nicholas: So basically, you sign in with your Apple ID. Yeah, you're asked to face ID. if you do, then it generates a passkey on your device. And then it's. if you choose to synced across all of your iOS devices today, you can have that today. And what's what's the point of generating this passkey? This is useful for what happens next in the app once the passkey is generated.

Vivian Phung: What's? once the passkey is generated, we we create a smart account wallet. I know we don't create. well, we essentially like using this, like, well, like, so how like, what's it called? ERC-1271, like standards, signature validation for contracts, we use that to essentially enable this passkey to own a smart contract wallet, we were like, essentially get the counterfactual address. And a counterfactual address is essentially like before a smart contract wallet is that has any transaction, like it's not deployed yet, it gets deployed, it gets like, enacted when the user creates their first transaction, but you can still know what your address will be.

Nicholas: And so like, counterfactual is knowing before the wallet is deployed, you know, the address what address it will be deployed to. deterministically, that's a counterfactual. Well, so basically, what you're saying is you generate the passkey when a user creates an account in your dApp. Yes. And then immediately, you know what their wallet address is going to be on whatever, across all chains, but whichever chain in particular, you're planning to deploy it to. So now they've got an account. So user just signed in with Apple ID, they face ID themselves, they labeled the wallet. I don't know if that's even necessary, really, really necessary. But I guess it's not.

Vivian Phung: actually we can remove that stuff altogether. And it could be like, just maybe.

Nicholas: Yeah, so so I create an account got the passkey and then you know what address this smart wallets going to be at. So we're talking about an alternative to like, on the preview episode, we talked about the use of Shamir setup. Yeah. Or traditional like burner wallet, even where you just have in local storage, some private key, and it's just directly deriving the public addresses from the private key sitting in like the memory of the PWA, which is really not safe. So passkeys are cool, because the OS is managing the passkeys. And people generally trust iOS more than anything else in the stack. So that's pretty cool. That means you could have really secure wallets that you're deploying as a user on boards to adapt, like a PWA a web app that they install on their phone. And they don't need to handle private keys. And yet it is self custody in the sense that it's on their iPhone. I mean, up to people to decide how safe they feel that is. But yeah, it's pretty good. It's not something that they can see directly. It's not something that Apple can see directly. And it's not something that the dApp developer can see directly. And yet it can be used to sign transactions on an EVM smart contract. That's pretty cool.

Vivian Phung: Yeah, again, like, I do want to say that is like a house standard, like, but like using the NPC version, like the private key is broken up into and sharded across many pieces and distributed across a trusted set of nodes, right? Plus one, when that one is you. And so, yeah, yeah. So just like.

Nicholas: so maybe maybe to shed a little bit of light on that. So that's lit protocol that enables the NPC piece is multi party compute piece. And part of the reason for that is because pass keys cannot easily sign transactions today. We kind of alluded to this, if people are interested, they can check out the 7212 episode from last week. But basically, the passkey itself cannot sign transactions on the AA wallets, because that kind of encryption is just not included in the EVM. So the smart contracts can't easily figure out if the signature is valid or not. It costs a lot of gas to do so. So that's one reason why you might want something like lit protocols NPC, which is like a distributed key generation service, basically, that aims to be decentralized, but maybe it's not entirely decentralized yet.

Vivian Phung: And okay, so like, it's valid, because like, right now is in test net. It's so far working really well. But like, like over the next few months, they'll be adding more nodes and expanding the set of like, like and moving toward like, being fully decentralized, like ahead of launch.

Nicholas: But basically, like they need to two thirds of the nodes need to agree in order to kind of synthetically create the private key in a way where it's not sitting on any one machine, but together, they're able to sign transactions on your behalf. But only when you sign something with the passkey, I guess. I mean, they're not able to sign arbitrary transactions without your permission, are they?

Vivian Phung: Yeah, they're not able to.

Nicholas: So they need. you need to sign something with a passkey before that distributed network can can summon the key, basically.

Vivian Phung: Yeah, but you can. you can split it into as many as you want, but you need at least two thirds.

Nicholas: You need at least two thirds of the of the the share the shards of the the key of the this distributed like. however many nodes there are in the lit network. Two thirds. Yeah. Okay. Or that's actually presuming that you would choose to split it into as many shards as there are nodes. But maybe that's not true, because you want some redundancy. So maybe less than that, for to make sure you can always transact. Because if you know, if half of them go down, you don't want to lose your ability to transact.

Vivian Phung: Yes, correct.

Nicholas: But that's basically something that you're able to plug into. That's like kind of plug and play service from lit pretty much right. That is what lit is trying to do. They're one of the things they're trying to do.

Vivian Phung: Yeah.

Nicholas: So that's that's not that. Okay, so that's like, yeah, yeah, a network that you're able to plug into.

Vivian Phung: Yeah, so that's our just our demo, right? This is our first little thing. But we also so we also are working with turnkey or working with lit.

Nicholas: So is turnkey similar to lit? Or how does turnkey work?

Vivian Phung: Turnkey is it's, it's different from lit by. it's not an MPC. It's it's just. it's just like, they use like their own, like, they call it a secure enclave. It's not actually the secure enclave, like iOS or just using the same terminology. But essentially, they hold on to their hold on to your private key, private, private publicly and and generally give you give you like, yeah, they essentially enable like, caskies as well. And also, like, EOA, like functionality. Yeah, like in a either custodian or non custodian manner, and you can choose.

Nicholas: Okay, so what I'm getting from this is that you're kind of trying to create a product that facilitates the process for Adaptive to onboard users and propagate their transactions and manage their wallet. But it's you're not so opinionated about like lit protocol or what was the other one called?

Vivian Phung: Yeah, turnkey. And like, they essentially just like create an encrypted environment for like, yeah.

Nicholas: So the point is, though, that you're you're offering options for devs using your tooling, you're kind of trying to simplify the process, but yes, still allow some options for what level type of security to control these kinds of wallets. Are there other parts of what you're doing like at the AA wallet, part of the stack, for example, where you're thinking about letting optionality?

Vivian Phung: Yeah, so we're working with alchemy. We're working with fund.xyz. We're integrating a few other account abstraction providers, we you can kind of see us as like a Vercell or a Heroku or like a railway of, of mobile development. That's how I want to push us in the future, where we have a bunch of these providers. We also provide UI UX, you can use our, our SDK, like barebone, or you can use it with like already pre built, like UX, and you can design to your own desires, or just use it like straight up. We just want to. we just want the process for developers to make it extremely easy for developers to build incredible mobile apps and seamlessly without having to worry about like incorporating all of these pieces together. Because right now you talk to a lot of these dApps, you talk to a lot of these like companies, and they're essentially all like building the same infrastructure over and over again, eating glass, when somebody were whether there should just be a mobile provider to do that for them, an SDK, a comprehensive SDK, where they can plug and play into whatever they would desire. And we'll have like template apps in like Swift, Kotlin, and like, there's like 10 apps that get keep getting built over and over again, right. And so I hope that once we have these template apps in in the variety of languages, and we can order like, make like deployment, like extremely simple and easy, like, people will become more creative, and also like, and like better and apps can become like a standard process, like, like standardized across the whole entire stack.

Nicholas: So one part of what you're saying is this wallet flow, we just described where you sign in with a familiar login method, SSO, a solution. So that could include correct me if I'm wrong, email, phone, Apple ID, Gmail, Facebook, TikTok, everything, yeah, discord. And then from there, you're generating a wallet, and it's up to the dApp devs to integrate that wallet into their experience, however they want. We talked about PWAs already. When we first met, you told me how passionate you are about building mobile apps.

Vivian Phung: Yeah.

Nicholas: Do you think apps are possible? Or what's the score?

Vivian Phung: Yes. So the future is the future is apps, right. And so like, things are changing in 2024 with new anti EU antitrust laws that are coming into place. And that means like, which forces Apple to actually open up their ecosystem and enable apps to be to like, not like, to not go through the App Store, and also app store review process or app store. And, and not have to pay the 30% digital asset. Take Yeah. And so that's a huge, huge win. First off, a lot of web two companies will be moving off the app store because they first off don't want to pay that 30% and second off, like, and so like, it's going to be normalized. And so like, crypto apps will, for the first time, have like, like access to the like, iOS ecosystem and like, like, get apps without having to do like a PWA, which I think that like, I think a lot of people are like, really bullish on PWAs because it's so easy to get like, onto the phone. But when when like, like the app experience will always be better. And that's like me being very biased.

Nicholas: So the EU, the EU is jailbreaking iOS, finally.

Vivian Phung: Exactly, exactly. And they're like, they're the second second largest market share for Apple. And they're charging a good sum of. Apple does not does not abide. And so Apple will abide.

Nicholas: Yeah, right. There finds at the beginning may not be Apple level problems, but the EU is not planning to back down. And Apple doesn't plan to ignore the EU. And they do seem to like USB C iPhones are coming out in a week or something or on Tuesday, or I cannot speak to that. Oh, right. Because you have experience at the company.

Vivian Phung: Yeah, yeah, I can talk a little bit about my experience.

Nicholas: What's your background? How did you start coding? How did you fall in love with making mobile apps? And where have you worked?

Vivian Phung: Yeah, yeah. So I like. so first off, like, in high school, I got a scholarship to build apps over two weeks on Harvard's campus, like fully paid for by Deloitte. And so every single day, we built a new iOS app. Every like four or two weeks. It was an incredible, incredible experience. And that was my first time. And that was right at like, right after senior year of like, I just graduated from high school.

Nicholas: And then one app every day.

Vivian Phung: Every day. Yeah, yeah, it was an. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like an iOS app, like every single day. It was an incredible learning experience. And then it like I went to college, I did a program with Google, like it was a two week program also as well, where we did the kind of the same thing with Android apps. It like it was kind of yeah, it was incredible experience over like a winter break. And I learned a ton. And then kind of like fell like that's just like I fell in love with like, like, I really enjoy just building apps. And I've been building apps ever, ever since. So like, yeah. And then after that, I took a so I was in college. Freshman year, I took an internship at Eventbrite for three months doing iOS as well. And then I actually got a few offers. I'd like a handful of offers from different companies. And I decided I'm going to take a gap year, sophomore spring instead of like returning. And I interned at Apple for five months building out 5g. And then I interned at Facebook for three months building out stories for their new business app. This this sweet app was replacing page manager. Incredible experiences. Incredible, incredible experiences.

Nicholas: What did you learn at Apple? And what did you learn at Facebook?

Vivian Phung: Okay, at Apple, I learned, I learned a lot about hardware, like building building for like, and I've never worked harder in my life, because it's, it's a it's a little bit of a cult where in a sense, everyone's so passionate about what they're building that like, you will, like people will all be in the office until like midnight or longer. And it's just like, just like, yeah. And I got a lot of autonomy there. And it was just an incredible, incredible experience. Yeah, yeah. I think that like, to be honest, I wasn't as incorrect, like, as a, like, yeah, like, I can't talk too much about my experience there. I did a little bit in the other like, but like, let's just say like, they're like, like, even on my resume, whatever I like, I had to get that approved by my director and my manager before even before getting it approved to put on my resume. Yeah, it was it's an insane. Yeah, yeah, like the end of the month, the number of NDAs I signed was insane. Like, it's actually like every single thing. And there's even like a system for this internally that like, you would. Yeah, yeah.

Nicholas: Anyway, if it's hard to system.

Vivian Phung: Yeah, no, no, you you got me. Like I like.

Nicholas: anyway, like, essentially, I've said too much. I have to kill you.

Vivian Phung: Yeah, essentially, you you can look up people's names. And you can see what they are. What what?

Nicholas: How NDA there?

Vivian Phung: Yeah, essentially, like, what are they like? What are they allowed to know? And what are they not allowed to know? Like, and they're all that reveal.

Nicholas: wouldn't that reveal what there is to know?

Vivian Phung: No, so it's so. everything's under a code name. So it's like, like, it's like 20, like 20 billion code names, right? And it's like, there's like, oh, yes, they're, they're allowed to know this. No, they're not allowed to know this, blah, blah, blah. And so like, you could be sitting next to someone for like, a few months, like you sitting next to another team, and you have no idea what they're working on. And they cannot tell you not talk about it. Like, it's a, it's an insane, like, but like, yeah, it's like a religion. But they're really good at creating that wow factor, you know, and, and keeping the surprise. Yeah. Yeah.

Nicholas: And so they do a great job. I mean, I, you know, yeah, they're basically the best, but it is a hell of a price to pay to not be able to talk. It's kind of weird. Yeah, kind of weird.

Vivian Phung: It is it is it is kind of weird. But again, it's it's kind of like a cult you sign up for. And everyone there is extremely passionate about Apple products, and creating great consumer products. And I think that like, Apple also like, they're not known for paying the best either. So it's okay. Okay. Anyways, like, essentially, what is your? yeah, they're there to essentially, like, if you're there at Apple, you're passionate about Apple products. Yeah, period.

Nicholas: It's, it's funny, because that because the the that what I mean, what is it? I bleed in six colors, like he asks them why they're still there. And they're like, I believe in six colors. It's like, uh, it must have been a big cultural change between the original generation of people who were there working on the Mac, and like the folklore.org kind of people. And then the people who, like you and me grew up loving modern, more or less post PC Apple products, must be a different staff mentality. And also like, what 100 x as many people are 1000 x or something crazy.

Vivian Phung: Yeah, yeah.

Nicholas: Really changed the company culture.

Vivian Phung: If you've seen, if you've seen like, they're like, yeah, anyways, that's like, like, yeah, my time on Facebook was incredible. A lot less like, it's a lot more sharing than, than than then, like, I Facebook, it's a monorepo. So everything is shared. Like you can see if anyone is internally, you can see every single thing I put into the code base. There's nothing hidden at Facebook, essentially. So like, completely different culture wise, well, especially my team, I think there's other teams that are more under NDA. But generally, it's pretty open. And like, you're sharing whatever you're building. And it was just an incredible experience. I think I've, I've never learned more than I've learned during that. Like that internship, I learned the most out of all my internships ever. Yeah, at Facebook.

Nicholas: Why? Why more than Apple? Why more?

Vivian Phung: I think that like, Facebook knows what they're like, Facebook has a general like, they've done that. they hire, they intern, they have a lot of interns, they like, do like 5k of interns. And so they have a whole process of how they like, like how they set standards and recruit and like, give offers and all that stuff. And like, essentially, like, like, they know what they're doing versus Apple. It's very, very department based team based. Anyways, so we can solve we can like, yeah, I learned like, like building consumer products at Facebook really taught me like, so, so, so much. And the choice was essentially, at that time, it was COVID happened halfway through my Apple internship. And so I had a few offers to choose from. I was like, I don't like what. will I go back home to sophomore year? Or do I like and live at home after not living at home for like over two years? Or do I take a full time job? And so I took a full time job. I was I add at Instagram, like Facebook, I chose my and yeah, joined their feed team. Whereas one of three engineers working on in feed recommendations and to feed recommendations and multi feed. And it was an incredible experience. Multi feed is like if you can. actually so if you look at if you click on your the feed option, there's like following like, like, let me see, can I actually go on Instagram without it ending this session? Essentially, there's followings favorites, and just general feed. So like, there's like, essentially just like TikTok.

Nicholas: Right, right.

Vivian Phung: You just click on the Instagram logo, and you'll you'll be able to change which feed you're on. Yeah. And I built the initial implementation of like, like, like the multi feed feature. It was a Wow. Yeah.

Nicholas: So how many daily users see that?

Vivian Phung: I don't know. I mean, on feed, it's incredible because like I would ship something and like a billion people would use it. And then like, you'd have a bit like, and you when you get that, like, you get that feedback directly. Like, so like, we have like, it's essentially like two week ship cycles. Anyways, it was. it's incredible. Like it the experience taught me so so much like A B testing learning, learning about like what like consumers actually want, like ship fast, like ship fast build, build like, and like, actually get feedback from the user. And don't just like sit around and wait and expect like, like, like you're gonna like in six months, like, no, like, just like ship, like, even if it's like rudimentary, and get it out there, see what users like, and then keep building from there. Iterate.

Nicholas: Very different to Apple.

Vivian Phung: Very different from Apple, where it's like a one year process. Yeah. But like, they'll both do it incredibly well. Right?

Nicholas: Yeah, definitely. Are there? they're very different. But I guess moving into web three, it's more of an open process. Things tend to be open source. Yeah, I don't know. Did you Is there some synthesis you took from that into choosing to do web three stuff? Or?

Vivian Phung: Yeah, yeah. So like, and so I don't like I'm worried. Like, we adopt this like mindset at snowball, like the Facebook like ship out and learn from like the consumer, like, who people like and actually, and like, what's it called? Continuous continuity iterate. I believe okay, so how I got into web three is actually through. so went to like some NFT NYC events, saw the consumer space saw that like, the apps were not the best. And I was kind of sick of building TikTok. Again, I wasn't changing the world and like at Facebook, and so like I decided kind of to like explore the web three space and was told on it. And I bridged for the first time. And the experience was terrible. This very scary. You're on like three different, three different like sites, like the bridge, the two different block explorers. And I did. I built a multi chain block explorer called Dora. I was CEO and co founder for nine months before kind of like realizing like, yes, it's gonna on for the next. Yes, a block explorer is extremely important, like a multi chain block explorer is needed and necessary. But like, I, what I know best is like mobile tooling, mobile apps. And there is and to onboard the next billion users, we need that in this space. So I took some time to figure out where I want like how, what tooling that I what tooling to build to make this to enable the billion next billion users to be onboarded. And snowball came along after like a lot of conversations with dApps, a lot of conversations with like builders, and like, as essentially like everyone's eating glass building their own infrastructure, when somebody should be like, when nobody's focusing on like, the core of the issue is like, there's like no mobile tooling to do this.

Nicholas: all for you, essentially, right, like, let us make apps rather than make infrastructure to make apps.

Vivian Phung: Yeah, let's let us focus on apps instead of like, focusing on like, making all the all of these protocols work together. And also, like, focus on what you do best focus on your product. And we will focus on the infrastructure for you.

Nicholas: So what are the problems that a dApp dev is eating glass on? Now, we talked about authentication, right?

Vivian Phung: Like, yeah, they're choosing an auth method. They're choosing like, so they want, there's like 10 billion auth methods. Are they going to use an EOA? And we can talk about like, what is an EOK versus a smart contract wallet, right? And so, like, like EOAs are externally owned accounts. So EOAs are the only type of accounts that can initiate a transaction or pay for gas. So all wallets have to be EOAs. The problems with EOAs are there are limitations. Like, you have to sign every transaction you want to do. You can't make your current payments.

Nicholas: You have to like, like, You're talking about like the popular EOAs today, like MetaMask, Rainbow, these kinds of Uniswap.

Vivian Phung: Anything. Yeah, yeah. Protocol wallets. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Nicholas: And so like, like, Because you could just have a private key sitting in local storage and dApp can sign on your behalf. That's not, you know, BuildGuild does that all the time. That's that's easy. It's just you can't trust it.

Vivian Phung: Yeah, yeah. I don't know about I haven't talked like BuildGuild. I don't I haven't heard about.

Nicholas: I mean, like, you can have. you can just throw a private key in into any JavaScript you want. There's no limitation on where you keep a private key. It's just a terrible idea from a security perspective. But like, yeah, we're not restricted to WalletConnect or window.ethereum and Rainbow and MetaMask. We could do other things. But with EOAs, someone has to hold a private key, which is the real problem with that design.

Vivian Phung: Yes, exactly. And so like account obstruction, like ERC-4337 enables like, like a whole new generation of like, a whole new generation of like UX capabilities that were never before available. And it's going to change the world, right? You can like, what is it that you like about AA wallets?

Nicholas: What is it that you like?

Vivian Phung: So like, like session based signing, like arbitrage, like you can what's it called? Like paymasters, being able to like sponsor gas, like a user doesn't necessarily have to know that they have an account, essentially with Snowballs SDK, we can enable users to like. it's such a seamless experience. where like, yeah, accounts are like essentially abstracted away. where like, there's like session based signing, intense, like theoretically, there's a lot to work on in that case. Like, yeah, so many things, the bundling transactions were like, instead of like, when you're doing a swap, right, you don't have to just like, every single time you're like, you have to like first off sign, sign like, okay, I'm going to approve this trans, this token to be transferred, and then actually improve this, the swap. Yeah, there's just like a multitude of things where just like the UX is improved by a lot. And also security implications were like, it's harder to get rugged, because you can make it like a essentially, right? Like we're like, well, anyways, we're like, you can have multiple signers with like different control them finitely. Yeah, like, and enable like, yeah, this only $50, $50 can not $50, but like 50 USDC can be a value can be transferred outside of my wallet without another without another signer XYZ. And this can be a UBI key, it's gonna be like, like a multitude of different, like another passkey, like multiple.

Nicholas: And then like, yeah, there's like, so many ideas about how people will be using like, do you imagine people using Igloo to have multiple keys? Or do you think people will just, you know, the default setup? What? do you have any idea of how people might use this in production? Like if they're making some kind of follow up to friend tech? What it might look like?

Vivian Phung: Yeah, like, I think that like, it really is going to depend on the user. And if like, like, for example, like a web to user is not gonna, and it probably won't have a lot of value on on their on their wallet. And like, we'll just do like a standard passkey for everything. But like, if you're a more like advanced user, you can set as many you can set as as as finite as you think.

Nicholas: Yeah, you're saying it really will depend on what the dApp developer is trying to build. If they're building something that needs a lot of security, then it might want more passkeys. And if it doesn't, then it might just, it might just be fine to have just one passkey generated on your iPhone that you can log into from all your iOS devices. And that's, that's enough security. So, okay, okay. So I know that you're like a fan of apps. So what would the you mentioned session keys? Would that mean that I could sign into, I don't know, some crypto Snapchat kind of thing. And then once I'm signed in once, am I face IDing every time I'm doing anything that requires access to the passkey that that is to say anytime I'm triggering a transaction? Or can I just like sign in once? And that's it as long as I'm signed in?

Vivian Phung: Well, session keys expire at a certain point. And as I showed, and also like, you can set finite when you're approved. finite like controls on like what the session key can do with the session, like, like, yeah, like the permissions a session key has.

Nicholas: Yeah. Okay. Hold on. Hold on. My question is for a dev who's thinking about putting this in their app, what kind of experience can they provide to a user? So user comes to their app, let's say, let's say we're making an app for sending each other I don't know, Valentine's something for each other little notes. If I have a user who signs into the app with their let's say they've already created an account, they're coming back to the app, what? what kind of what's like the slickest UI you could give someone for making transactions from one of these a wallets that with a passkey etc. What would the experience be like when they open the app up again? Let's say you get it, you get a notification. Nicholas sent you a thank you note for coming on the show. You click the notification. What happens next?

Vivian Phung: Like you're already in that app, you're already like, like connected to your wallet, right? So like, you can see exactly what what Nicholas sent you. And let's say you want to send another. you want to send it. First off, we check if your session keys are still valid.

Nicholas: And second off, then how long can a session key last in reality? Well, a session key can last as long as like the request that session key to last and also like first option for the dap dev would be do you want to biometrically off them every time they open the app after they've been away for an hour? Or do you want to just let them log in once and they don't need to log in again, like most social apps don't require you log in again or face ID again.

Vivian Phung: Okay, the slickest interface, you sign in with your bare biometrics, you accept it into your account, you never have to log in again. And you want to write a note back to them, you can write a note back to them. And let's say developer requests, like unlimited note access. Like, that like, like just, but just for this, like, no, no, no, no feature, and they pay for gas, so it doesn't cost you anything. And that's fine on your your end. And so like, you can even think about like, let's say TikTok wants to implement it, right? And every single time you like something you'd like a TikTok, you don't want to sign for that, right? And so we could, we can make that capability possible.

Nicholas: You just like, so basically, what you're saying is that it's now possible with what you're building, or will be in October, you told me, right? Yeah, something like that. launch date around October, it'll be able, a developer will be able to create a PWA. And once it's legal, an app where users download or add to home screen, they sign in with their Apple ID, they generate a passkey by by scanning their face. that is added, if they choose to their iCloud keychain. So it's synced across all their devices. And then when they go to that PWA or app on any of their devices that's compatible with whether it's a PWA or an app, when they first log in, they'll face ID to connect, and then they could forever be logged in on that device, no more authentication ever. And then they can just click buttons. And those buttons can trigger transactions and the app will have access to the passkey sufficient to a web session sufficient to just trigger transactions when they press buttons in the app, without ever having to biometrically off again. And without having direct access to the passkey either, because it'll still be coming through iOS. So the dapdev doesn't have enough material to sign transactions on your behalf at all. And additionally, you can set it up so that that session only has access to do certain kinds of things. Thanks to the AA wallet. So you could have a passkey that only has signing permissions for for example, interacting with our notes, PWA contract, only sending notes and not not spending gas even. And such a thing could be powered by a paymaster, gelato or somebody else that you partner with. that would allow you to pay for adaptive to pay for the gas. Yes.

Vivian Phung: Yes. And currently, like right now, like let's say for this demo, we use alchemy. So we're using their pay pay paymasters. What's it called? But like, yeah, like, like and with this, like alchemy enables like more finite, like you can use your own smart contract wallet, smart contract wallets. But if you like use a provider like fondant XYZ, like they have their own smart contract wallets. And like, and that is a more like, you have less control. But it's like some like, maybe maybe like you want more simplicity, maybe you don't want your own customs.

Nicholas: So do you imagine that I guess it's just like parameters that a adaptive sets when they're like constructing the wallet inside of the their web app? Is that how they're choosing between fun and alchemy?

Vivian Phung: Yes.

Nicholas: Got it.

Vivian Phung: So but like, it like really depends. Like this is like a white like, for this example, we're talking about this is like a white label. like they want a specific they want their own smart contract wallet for their dap, right? For like, what's it called? It's a...

Nicholas: Yeah, that's exactly what I was going to ask you. So we're still talking about this in the direction of every dap having its own embedded, essentially embedded wallet, really, it's just an embedded passkey with a wallet on chain somewhere. But how do you think about the future for that? Do you think every dap for the next little while will be creating its own new wallet? Or will there be some kind of shared wallet that emerges? Because obviously, there's an advantage to having some liquidity already in a wallet when your user Yeah, so Snowball will have a shared wallet that you can use like you with your passkey across.

Vivian Phung: And so with this, like what like NBC also enables is like using the same like same passkey, you can authenticate on like Solana, you can Cosmos on EVM. Yeah, so like, of course, like on different ecosystems, you'll have different wallets. But like, on like, let's say EVM, you can log into the like using this passkey log into the same smart account wallet. And use this across different daps. So you kind of have like choice. you can choose between like adapt developer can choose, okay, do I want to use Snowballs already built already? Like with with a ton of users already integrated into like the ecosystem? Or do we want to use a white labeled and have have our own account system just for our app? And that is possible with Snowball? Yeah.

Nicholas: Got it. So so how would adaptive? they would just I guess, choose different parameters when they're instantiating the wallet. And if they choose to if they say, well, you know, more people have ETH in, let's say a snowball shared wallet, then yeah, like some new wallet that I create. So they would just change the parameters in their use of the SDK. And the result would be if the user has a snowball wallet already, they would. they would just log in with it directly. How would that look in the UI? Do you think if they're like they download the app? What does it look like?

Vivian Phung: So like, I think, like. the UI will just be like, I'll sign like either a very similar to the demo where it's like, like creating an account or sign signing with snowball. And like, and it will like pop up your request your passkey.

Nicholas: Like I hit the screen, do I see phone number, email, Apple ID, Gmail, snowball? Or if I click Apple ID, does the passkey for snowball show up there if there is one already?

Vivian Phung: So okay, so when you click, like, so the choices are like, we'll have like. passkeys is like a second, like, awesome, where like you authenticate, you can authenticate just using a passkey. just what username, right? Or that can be like a secondary, like, you have a username and password through like any like web to like email, like phone number, social login, all that jazz, right? And what you what you can do afterwards is forced kind of like not forcing user but like request to use their creative passkey from from after they log into these like social, like social features. And then from then on, like they will just like log in via what's it called? Like the snowball passkey, like, hopefully, like, hopefully, they kind of understand that. But if they don't, then they can just...

Nicholas: Sorry, I don't understand. So I show up in the app. There's a button to log in with Facebook, I click the button to log in with Facebook, and it shuttles me to the Facebook app. to like approve a thing or whatever, I have to type in a code from somewhere in my email or phone number, whatever. And then once I have to F8 into it, then it's going to ask me to make a passkey. Yes. Or to reuse a passkey if I already have one that's compatible.

Vivian Phung: Yes, the issue with passkeys and this is like a security feature on purpose, not issue generally, this is like intentional security thing is that we can't like as a you, we as as a developer, you can't know if a user already has a passkey like, unless you request it, like you request, like the user has to like essentially request, like, like, like be like sign in with passkey.

Nicholas: And then like, so I can sign into any app with any passkey I've generated in the past?

Vivian Phung: Like, no, I'm talking about, okay, so as a like, as a developer, like you can't know if a user already has generated a passkey, like, or has a passkey for this, for like this, this app, like, there's no way to know that. Until like the user, like until the user like, volunteer, they have to volunteer their user has to volunteer and then it shows up a prompt of like, oh, these are the passkeys you have.

Nicholas: or this is like, like you have a passkey, you don't even know, even then you don't know. the user has to choose, you can ask them to choose a passkey, they have to agree to agree to choose a passkey, choose a passkey, confirm, and then you get the passkey or you get the public key associated with the passkey.

Vivian Phung: Yes. And if they don't have a passkey, it's going to show up a QR code. That's kind of a weird UX experience for like, oh, yeah, like, and there's no choice of like, right now there's like no like, and let's say they don't have a, on any device, they don't have a passkey for this, right?

Nicholas: And so they're like, okay, I guess I'll scan it with my phone.

Vivian Phung: Yeah, but like, they don't have a passkey on their phone. And so like,

Nicholas: just to clarify for people who haven't spent their time in the trenches of this stuff, you're saying, for example, if you go on Brave right now, and open up igloo tools.xyz, if you don't have a passkey, it might well show you a QR code because it's anticipating that like Discord and WeChat or WhatsApp and other apps where you just have a sort of temporary session on the desktop computer, but the keys live on your phone, which is safer. It's prompting you with a QR to ask you to scan it with your iPhone where maybe you have a passkey. But if you don't have one, that's not going to help very much. I guess you can create one at that point on the iPhone, maybe.

Vivian Phung: You have to, okay, you have to literally, like do a, there's a difference between, like authenticate and create like and there's there's not like a place where like, oh, I don't have a passkey. Create a passkey. Yeah. Like you literally have to go back to the the other. There's two separate flows. This is something that like, I think that like, oh, like definitely needs to change on the web auth side. This is like a standard for, for passkeys, even like Apple, like you, they've, they've integrated passkeys into their, like login for like developers already. And like the way that they do is that you like, there's a login, like username, password, and there's two buttons login. And there's like, use your passkey. And like, you click on user. Yeah, yeah.

Nicholas: Essentially, like, it's still a terrible. Just be signing in with Apple. And then they prompt the passkey thing. And if it's, if you don't have one, then it's only create. And if you do have it, let's choose or create. Yeah. But the issue is users shouldn't really even have to choose unless they have multiple already.

Vivian Phung: Yeah. And typically user only has one. And that's like, fine. That's like incredible. Like, whereas just like done face ID, you're done easily do diddly do done.

Nicholas: But I guess they need to allow like, if you imagine, I don't know, Twitter with passkeys, Twitter with Apple ID login and passkeys, then you might want to have multiple passkeys for different accounts or something like this. Yeah. Or you might want to have even different passkeys for like the kind of NPC multi sig solution you're talking about.

Vivian Phung: I hope I'm explaining this correctly. But essentially, like I hope TLDR, like the passkey like web to even ecosystem is terrible, has kind of terrible UX or in the sense, we don't know if you have a passkey. And if you don't have a passkey, you click login with this passkey. Like you're prompted with like a QR code, and you may not even have a passkey. You can't just like, like have another button where it's like, oh, create a passkey from that you have to like exit that flow and then go back and like, it's rough. Yeah, it's rough. It's rough experience. There's nothing that we can do on our side for that. Yet, we can make proposal changes on on web on site, and we're probably going to do that. But like, that's just like an FYI. Like that's not something that like, that's just like a built in feature with passkeys.

Nicholas: Right. I wonder if there'll be any slick ways you can like try to figure out if the user has an account yet or not. So you present only the necessary buttons, but I guess there's not.

Vivian Phung: Unfortunately, the I think you're talking to, I believe, next week, this week, actually, with what's his name? Jose. Yeah, Jose, who, like did a great job breaking down like how the website on Yeah, passkey.is, I believe. Yes, I asked. I looked at it and I actually talked to them before we, we chose our passkey solution. And the trade offs that he talked about in his on his website was actually kind of the reason why we chose to do the MPC version, because it's, it's a, there, there are quite a few doing a scan. Also, it's like expensive to the, it's not, it's on.

Nicholas: I think the tradeoff between having the passkey be directly a signer on the AA wallet versus having an intermediary MPC.

Vivian Phung: Well, doing like, like the, the intermediary MPC.

Nicholas: What was the other option? You chose MPC. What was the other path?

Vivian Phung: The other path was using our SEPTA 256 R1, which is, it's too expensive on on chain. Yeah, right now.

Nicholas: People can check out the 7212 episode if they want to learn more about that.

Vivian Phung: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Nicholas: But basically, basically, short summary, if you want to have the passkey directly sign an AA wallet, you need to bring your own smart contract that can verify passkey signatures. And the cheapest anyone has got this to you so far is, from what I've heard, 60,000 gas update, updated since the ledger one, which is maybe passable on L2, but it's really not something you want to use. So 7212 is a proposal to incorporate the passkey's elliptic curve into the EVM so that smart contracts could verify data that's signed by a passkey, which has this SEPTA 256 R1 elliptic curve, as opposed to the, the Ethereum and Bitcoin K1 variety of curve. So, okay, so a lot of moving parts. But basically, you're putting a lot of thought into the UX of onboarding to make it easier for people. And I'm very excited about the sessions, personally, because, yeah, I mean, that's starting to sound like an app someone might actually use.

Vivian Phung: Yeah, imagine like the next billion people are going to be onboarded through like a, like, in my opinion, it's going to be through a casual game like Candy Crush, for example, where a bill, like, where the user doesn't even know that they have a wallet, until like, they have like 10 lollipops that are worth like $2 each. And they're like, oh my god, wait, what the hell? Like, this is crypto. And it doesn't have to be. Yeah, and it onboards people in the most fun and like, in a way where they're like, yeah, yeah.

Nicholas: I love that. Like a person just said, am I a degen? Playing Candy Crush. You're a fan of Candy Crush, right?

Vivian Phung: Yes, I'm a fan of Candy Crush. I'm a fan of casual games. I, as a kid, I played Plot or Plans. I played like, I had two, two, zero, four, eight. I love chess. I actually have a chess game that I'm almost, I need to finish. I'm going to incorporate the Snowball SDK into it. And just like enable people to play on chain, like, like to make, to like, yeah, yeah.

Nicholas: It's just going to be chess on chain.

Vivian Phung: Yeah, yeah. Also, I think it'd be really fun to do tournament against your friends.

Nicholas: Totally. That sounds like a lot of fun. And actually sounds like an app that could actually be popular with people, especially because it's, you know, it's, it's like anything like that, like rankings, like you're saying, or, or, or you kind of presented two, two reasons why you might want to do that. Rankings on chain, which for like chess competition, you can imagine why people would want such a thing. Like verifiable rankings, but also like tradable assets generated by a game that's maybe proprietary, but can nevertheless be like traded on OpenSea maybe, or, you know, just the, you can imagine a game that is an app, but that its assets live on outside of it and are coherent with the whole, you know, 721, 1155 ecosystem. I agree. If you can log in with just an Apple ID and you don't need to think about having an address or a wallet or gas or any of this stuff. Do you think people will do their own app chains just to run that software? Because if you're going to subsidize the gas, it might as well not, you know, not be, not cost you ETH to do so.

Vivian Phung: I mean, like that's, there is a future for that. Like I, we've thought about doing like, we've thought about app chains. Like we, before this, I was, I was talking to Celestia about specific app chains and, and for each, each like DAP would have their own for security and like, it's like generally just like, like, you know, if you get hacked, for example, you can, you can like, like, like, and yeah, you can fork and essentially maintain the, the status of before versus like, if you're doing on ETH mainnet, like ETH doesn't care at all. Yeah.

Nicholas: So. Is there maybe like a gradient of decentralization rather than, you know, maybe there is some reason for app chains. It's a little hard to say. I mean, it seems like a lot of responsibility. If you start doing stuff that's really centralized, it's starts to feel more custodial, the whole ecosystem. I don't know how base is dealing with that right now with not actually having fraud proofs. And I think not even having the forced inclusion on L1 seems like a very custodial system to me, but.

Vivian Phung: I think that base is for a very different consumer than like, like, and I don't.

Nicholas: I just mean in terms of liability, even like, how can you claim that you're not a custodian if you're the sole sequencer on a, anyway, I like base, but as it stands today, it seems like, there's no plausible decentralization in something like base in September, 2023. But it has a convenient API and if they can change the engine of the plane while it's flying to make it actually decentralized, which everyone else has seems to have done. Arbitrum is further along on that process than the OP stack. And I think, I don't think it started that way. So it does seem possible, but it's interesting to think about app chains. I think there's a lot of thinking to be done about gas because Paymasters implies that you're kind of spending ETH to or Matic or whatever, you know, maybe you have a roll up with your own gas coin, but that seems like really costly, consumer acquisition costs kind of thing. And it kind of disincentivizes you from having very active users because it's costing you more and more.

Vivian Phung: Yeah. I don't think people will be paying for gas in the future. It will be subsidized by like applications that businesses that want you to use their services over their computers. And like, for like. a good analogy for today is you can think about like Visa and Mastercard charges like a 2% transaction fee on all credit card transactions, right? So you can kind of think about like how gas fees, like transaction fees as like gas fees for like this one, like SWIFT, right? Like the network, like most large businesses pay that transaction fee on behalf of the customers because they want that. They don't want to pass that to the customer and they want the like, they want business, right?

Nicholas: They may invisibly pass it to the customer. I mean, they don't tell you how much fees is charging, but they might raise their price by 3%. But yeah, it is kind of interesting because there is something of a cartel or something between Visa and Mastercard. They're not exactly competing on that 2.9%. Neither is Stripe or anybody else that there. We have reached an equilibrium. So maybe the parallel would be like, if base decides that they want to encourage some kinds of activity, I don't know, some new lens or something they want to bring onto the network, they might subsidize all the gas for transactions on a certain protocol or smart contract platform, whatever. But it does seem like if the credit cards have anything to say about it, it seems that you do reach some kind of equilibrium point where everyone's getting their 2.9% and stops competing on price. So it doesn't mean that there's no, but maybe this like super profitable base gas transit, like gas base is making tons of money off arbitrarily setting the gas prices right now. So they might not be able to make quite as much money in a competitive environment with other chains. Yeah.

Vivian Phung: If other people start to subsidize gas. Yes, they do. Like some, like, especially like smaller businesses, of course, like they do like charge a transaction fee on like, like, let's say if you're paying less than 10 bucks or something like that. And that's like a valid, that's a. yeah, it's, it's probably going to like, yeah, yeah, 100%.

Nicholas: Right. I think we kind of did the tour of everything. I don't know if there's anything, if people want to find out more about Snowball. So Snowball is the company and Igloo is the product. Is that right?

Vivian Phung: Yes. Yeah, exactly.

Nicholas: So if people want to find out more iglootools.xyz for the demo, where else can they? can they keep up with you and Snowball?

Vivian Phung: Like Snowball tools on Twitter would be in like, yeah, Snowball tools on Twitter, feel free to reach DM me if you have any questions, answer anything. And that's Vivian Phung, V-I-V-I-N-P-H-U-N-G or Snowball tools. Both of our DMS are open, happy to answer any questions about what we're building, and really excited to like, push mobile forward.

Nicholas: Sweet. So October ish, people can look forward to playing with this in their own dApps. And you're going to be on mainnet and you're going to be at ETH Global NYC also. maybe people are going.

Vivian Phung: Yes, I will be at ETH Global NYC. If anyone wants to build using the Snowball SDK, I will also be using the Snowball SDK and happy to help in any way, facilitate anything. Yeah. Awesome. We will like the Snowball SDK. Okay, so we also FYI, like, will be. if you want to not, we will also like enable like. if you want to use it on mainnet, we will that that is also possible. We'll make that. we'll make that a reality for you.

Nicholas: You're saying sooner sooner than like the official launch is possible. if you if you DM.

Vivian Phung: Yeah, essentially like, yeah, give me a DM. Yeah.

Nicholas: All right. This is the alpha access to Snowball. Yeah. Viv, thank you so much. Before we go, I wanted to read the sponsor read. I forgot to read it in the middle of the show. But luckily, it's not. it's not a. I'm not gonna get in trouble because the sponsorship for this episode is the show itself. Web3 Galaxy Brain. If you're enjoying this episode, please give Web3 Galaxy Brain a review. I'd like to read the two reviews that we received this week, but I don't have them pulled up right now. So I won't bother. But you can read them in the App Store or whatever in the podcasts and Spotify. We have a handful of reviews, but it's embarrassing. Please go. If you like the show, go go give it a review. If thanks, this was awesome. Very excited to see how Snowball evolves early days. And I mean, I think the stack is very promising and you have an attention for UX. So I think people should keep their eyes open.

Vivian Phung: Thank you. Thank you. All right. It was so great. And thanks for having me on the show.

Nicholas: Of course. See you at ETH Global NYC. All right. Thanks, everybody. See you next week. Hey, thanks for listening to this episode of Web3 Galaxy Brain. To keep up with everything Web3, follow me on Twitter at Nicholas with four leading ends. You can find links to the topics discussed on today's episode in the show notes. Podcast feed links are available at Web3GalaxyBrain.com. Web3 Galaxy Brain airs live most Friday afternoons at 5 p.m. Eastern Time, 2200 UTC on Twitter Spaces. I look forward to seeing you there.