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Web3 Galaxy Brain

JokeDAO and Governance as Entertainment with Sean McCaffery + EthRio Recap with Zeugh, 0xGogo, and Neodaoist

21 April 2022


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Nicholas: - Welcome to Web3 Galaxy Brain. My name is Nicholas. At the end of each week, I sit down for a casual Friday afternoon conversation with some of the brightest people building Web3. In this episode, I'm joined by Sean McAfree of the gamified governance DAO, JokeDAO, and Zug from community management DAO, CanoeDAO. In the first hour of today's show, Sean explains the origins of JokeDAO, a joke writing contest whose winner is decided by joke token voting. We get into the project's origins using Mirror WriteRace and the DAO's transition to building their own multi-chain voting as entertainment DAP. In the second half of the show, Zug and members of the Slice community tell us all about E3O and the E3O hackathon winning project, Mosaico, an NFT art sale designed to onboard local artists into Web3. This episode was a lot of fun. The JokeDAO conversation at the top of the show taught me that governance doesn't need to be a dry process but can instead be the very basis of entertaining community-building competitions. I hope you enjoy the show. How's it going, Sean?

Sean McCaffery: - It's going well. It's been a great Friday. I've been pretty pumped. We got JokeDAO, you know, did our joke race earlier and then the Amazon unionization vote passed. So I've been just absolutely amped about that all day.

Nicholas: - Damn, we got a lot to talk about. Zug, how are you doing?

Zeugh: - Just great. I've had a very, very fun week having lots of interesting convos and doing some nice shit with the governance automation for Juicebox that we intend to expand into more of a flexible tool that other DAOs can also use. So, well, having a lot of fun.

Nicholas: - Crazy. Okay, I want to hear about that. But first I want to hear about the joke race today. What's the deal? Honestly, I've mainly followed from Twitter. So maybe you can like wind it back and then tell us about what you built this month, Sean.

Sean McCaffery: - Yeah, for sure. Yeah, so I'll start from the beginning is like, I think it was in January, David, @DivineEconomy on Twitter, like came out, I think with a couple other people but primarily Champion did. It was joked out. And the entire idea was like, how do we make governance fun? Like right now it's kind of a bit of a chore and like you have to like corral people and get them to vote on things and then pass the multi-sig. And then also a lot of times it's just like most of them pass because there's a high level of trust and like people know the developers. They're like, okay, we're just gonna pass the developers do. So this was kind of like, it originally was an experiment. I'm like, how do we make this fun and engaging? And like, people are excited to come and like, how do we build this as like a social cohesion tool? And so as the joke, how the joke races worked is basically it was a competition to see who could submit the best joke. So a bunch of people on Twitter would submit a joke and if you submit it with an ENS name, then you would get rewarded with joke period. You'd get 69 joke for submitting a joke with an ENS name. And then they'd have every week, there'd be like a curator, which is like someone in the web three space. Like we had a couple people on the bigger names. I need to remember who those were, but like, yeah, they'd go through, they'd pick like eight jokes that were really cool. And then on Friday, people would with joke would vote and you wanna try to get, you wanna try to vote on the first best joke, but you try to get second place. And so it led to some cool game theory where people like you had these eight jokes and a bunch of people that own tokens and they were trying to vote on the second best joke. And so that's generally where it came from.

Nicholas: - So wait a second, why the second best joke? Because otherwise it would be just too easy to collude and people would just vote for the winningest one? - Yeah, yeah.

Sean McCaffery: I mean, I think that was the general premise is like, yeah, that's not complicated enough, you know? So, and it made it fun. Like it's, you know, there are a lot more things to consider. when you're like, well, how do we make sure that we get the second most vote? Like what's the game theory we have to deploy there?

Nicholas: - Okay, that's pretty interesting. And then, so you got 69 votes and then you spend them or you like stake them on a joke? How does it work?

Sean McCaffery: - Yeah, so we used Mirror Write Race while it was still around. And how that worked is like you took a snapshot of how many joke tokens you owned at a certain point in time. And then that determined how many votes you got in the Mirror Write Race. And at least how that worked. and what I've built now works in the same way. is that like, so you have like 69 votes. You can use as many of them as you want at any given time. So like people would often like vote multiple times, maybe with like 10 votes and then with 15 votes and then with the rest of their votes when they finally saw how things were kind of looking at the end, that's how it generally goes.

Nicholas: - And so you're like, so you're, I'm trying to remember how the Write Race worked. I always found it a little bit confusing, but I didn't use it the sort of post Mirror Write Race that was sort of productized for things like Jokedow. But you basically just sign, by the way, what's the URL of the thing that you built so people can look at it?

Sean McCaffery: - Yeah, for sure. It's jokedow.io.

Nicholas: - Jokedow.io. So this is like, so Mirror discontinued Write Race and so you've sort of built your own thing. And I see it's scaffolded, very nice. Austin Griffith, props. - Yeah, thanks.

Sean McCaffery: And it's open, entirely open source. So yeah, I guess I can speak on. So we were doing that, we were doing the Joke Race and then Mirror said, you know, like we're discontinuing the Write Race. And it just kind of like the timing worked out 'cause like we're set to move into like V2 of Jokedow anyway at that time. So David was kind of like, well, does anybody want to like build Mirror Write Race and like make it, like add some cool features to it? Like basically like, so we can run this, but also like make the Jokedow product. And I was like, well, I'm really interested in that. And so something that we aligned on early was like, we want to make it entirely open source and we want to make it really easy for any other DAO or any other person to just deploy it. Like make it super easy for anyone to set up governance. and like have fun making decisions amongst people. So that's what kind of like kicked off what I've built today, which is @jokedow.io.

Nicholas: - Yo, Mirror has like all these cool software projects spinning out of the things it's built. That's pretty sick. So you, when you say like make governance fun, like it's funny 'cause it's almost like the attraction of Jokedow is the governance. Like it's gamified governance or something, or it's just the governance part is the fun part. It's not an excuse to do boring governance.

Sean McCaffery: - Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so that's a great question. And at least, so a cool like anecdote that came out of the original Write Races is that, and how they were set up is part of what made Jokedow, what makes Jokedow fun is we recognize that like collusion is inherent and like ultimately everything's layer one. This is just a bunch of humans. Like we're all just a bunch of humans coordinating on things. And so from the jump, the original paper for Jokedow was like, we are not only going to recognize that collusion happens and then like humans coordinate together to do things. We're going to encourage you to. So like form groups and like try to win and make sure that your joke gets second place so you can maximize the amount that you're rewarded and stuff. And so I started like something called, with Quasimat started something called the Joke Cartel. And we're just a group of people that like kind of came together and had some jokes. And we like came up with strategies. We were like, all right, like this week, let's try to like control the top two. And then at the very end, like we'll be splitting our votes. So we won't be maximizing the possible reward we can get 'cause you're rewarded proportionate to the amount of votes that you spent on the winning outcome. But we were like, we'll make sure that we win if we split our votes between like first and second place. It's very survivor-esque, a lot of that type of game theory. And so it made it really fun to coordinate like that.

Nicholas: - That's pretty cool. I like this idea of like, it feels very native to the thing that you're embracing it. Like I never played Dark Forest, but hearing some of the stories out of that, it sounds kind of similar. Like the game theory of the coordination becomes, it's really stripped down in a way. Like you don't need graphics. You don't need any even kind of math game. It's just like, I guess jokes are a kind of math game, but a little bit of a different energy.

Sean McCaffery: - Sure, yeah. No, it's nice to be able to name things 'cause I think a lot of times like it goes, it's something that everyone is aware of that's happening, but like we just kind of like, I don't know, operate with it kind of being a premise and how we respond to it being a premise, it being collusion and things like that. And with this, we just kind of like named it and we're like, we know this happens. So let's like try to make it as fun as possible. And like, given that this is the case and this is how humans work, like let's make, let's name it, say that it's okay and encourage it. And it ended up being really fun. And to answer your question, I think that's what makes governance fun is when it's like something we kind of pinpointed is like. to this point, the assumption has been governance is best done when you get the best answer. And like what a canonically best answer is comes with a lot of assumptions baked in and kind of like what we've seen with token. voting is like oftentimes what it comes to be the best answer is just what the people who own the most tokens want. But what we've kind of flipped it on its head and said, maybe even if you had like a technical metric or like an objective, if objectivity is even a thing, right, an objective right answer, we actually think that like what's best for a DAO is social cohesion and like making friends and like building a strong social network. And so that's kind of the thesis that we've operated on and changed it. So like governance isn't about getting the right answer. That's really stressful and like very much so in like verbose stuff, but we're like, let's make it iterative. And like, there are a bunch of people just like working together and like, maybe you put up a proposal and like a week later, you're like, okay, maybe this isn't ideal. Let's put up another proposal and iterate on it. But that was more of the energy we're bringing to it.

Nicholas: - That's crazy. Zouk, do you have any thoughts on that?

Zeugh: - I'm still very curious to see how JokeDAO grows in the space, given the fact that Mirror took the right race away. I think that, of course, all the governance here is a very big experiment, but the way it's going to unfold as it scales to a space where many people have been part of before, that is the right races, how this develops on taking a part of that space back with a lot of governance thinking into it, that's definitely something I'm eager to watch how it unfolds.

Nicholas: - It's pretty cool to see governance as the game mechanism design. It's interesting. you say that social cohesion is more important than finding perfect, right answers, which I think is very much the vibe, but also it's like, is JokeDAO the new like extremism, YouTube algorithm, product form or whatever? This is where coherent groups of all types can grow on JokeDAO. I saw you put it out on so many different networks. What's the story?

Sean McCaffery: - Yeah, that's a fantastic point. I think that's an interesting kind of like dialectic there of like, well, what's the opposite of getting a canonical right answer? And that's something that we wanted to enable is like, if people are, if they don't like that and they want another form of governance, like it's open source, so it'd be cool. Like people like, you kind of like, I really like the idea of like intentional communities and like the only way you can get an intentional community it's like, if everybody's down to be there and they've agreed upon principles and being in one space together. And so if people say like have different principles they're operating off of like, let's recognize that as a reality and enable them to fork it. And so to your question, enabling people to build on every pain, I guess this is kind of a nerd snipe, but it was something that I was really, or I guess that's kind of jargony. It's something that I'm really excited about on the technical side is not only to enable people to like fork and like find their own intentional communities and be able to make decisions within them by making it really easy to spin up a token and spin up a governance process. But we, I noticed like a model that we've kind of had to this point in development. And then we can, and I can see why given like kind of the material circumstances regarding gas costs and how it's really expensive to do things on mainnet. But we've kind of had this model where you have these canonical contracts, like where the project deploys determines a lot. And like, there's a lot of roll-ups competing for. I want you to deploy your canonical contract on this roll-up. And so I thought like, we're at a really interesting intersection in the space where roll-ups are starting to come online, scalability solutions are starting to become viable. And I was like, well, what if we just allowed the user to deploy wherever they want it? You can go to whatever chain you want, whatever works best for you. We just provide them like the byte code. And every time you want to make a new decision, you can spin up something different. You can make a decision on a different roll-up every week for your governance process. And so that was a different pattern that we thought we'd try out. And now that things are getting cheaper and cheaper, it's becoming ever more feasible. And what's really cool about the Ethereum ecosystem is as long as you're AVM compatible, the only barrier to getting to other chains is plugging in an RPC endpoint. Like it's just a configuration and you can be anywhere you like.

Nicholas: - So I'm looking at the site right now. So the structure of the site is you create vote tokens and a contest. I'm trying to see what. do I have to connect together to get this thing working? Like, I guess the question I was trying to figure out how to ask is, do they have anything to do with one another? Or presumably you want your contests, a sequence of contests to appear on the same network such that the tokens that are on one of the networks can be used over multiple contests, like Jokedow, as it is today, is gonna stay on mainnet or whichever network it's on for subsequent ones for convenience, I imagine?

Sean McCaffery: - Well, that's a great question. And so kind of a pattern that's along with this, right? That I'm kind of thinking about and experimenting with in the general sense with everything in Jokedow is disposability. So you could do that. You could deploy a token once and give it to people and say, this is the token we're gonna use for voting going forward. Or like in what I've done with Jokedow is like, I'm like, okay, this past week, we sent out a token that was a snapshot of Joke token holders on Ethereum mainnet. So we said, I think it was like Wednesday at 2 p.m. Eastern. Whoever holds Joke at this time and however much they own, we're gonna send out a token on Polygon. that's a snapshot of that, right? And the only promise we're making is that this token is what we'll use for the week of April 1st's Joke race, and that's it. And something really cool that we've been thinking about is like, well, maybe next week we'll release the snapshot token on XDAI chain or on Arbitrum, right? So this idea of disposability of like, you can use tokens as just one-off voting tokens is also something that we're exploring.

Nicholas: - That's very cool. So like the layer zero is really able to deploy onto multiple L1, L2, it doesn't matter, but the social community and then what it chooses to do next matters more than like with the provenance of a token used in a prior contest.

Sean McCaffery: - Yeah, exactly, exactly. I think it's focusing less on like, I think tokens are such an interesting concept and like how they exist today, I think will be very interesting to look back on in a couple of years, 'cause I think they've evolved very much so to mirror the corporate model. And in the end, I guess how I think of tokens is it's really just like code, it's really just accounting. And so, yeah, I think exactly what you said, I think that's a really good framing of like, this is really about enabling people to do the accounting of governance and do the coordination of governance in as easy and as flexible way as possible and for them to do it in whatever way they want. So yeah, I think you put it really well.

Nicholas: - I've been thinking about this too. I don't know, I'm sure there are some examples of it and airdropping and mint passes and things, but like people really vampiring other NFT communities by just using the state of who owns what tokens as data for future, I mean, obviously there's like the spam polygon NFTs and stuff, so it is done a little bit in NFTs, but yeah, like you don't need to have a singular

Zeugh: equity

Nicholas: type token, you can have just whatever happens across all the chains, you can do whatever. I was talking to, on Monday, I talked to Cy Bourgeoisie about the Cyber Brokers contract, which is actually a pretty cool contract, 91 megs of, or 91 ETH worth of SVG written to the chain. and he was using this really cool technique to like store the data for the SVGs as contract deploys, but they're sort of non-functional contracts, but they're just extremely tightly packed SVG. And it just sort of reminded me of, actually, I don't know what it reminded me of about this,

Sean McCaffery: but

Nicholas: I guess, oh, because he used, in a previous iteration, they used Loom Network for some project and then Loom Network just disappeared, like, I don't know, a side chain that just disappeared. And some of the tokens had been bridged to ETH, but so many of them were lost, many of the original NFTs were lost on this other side chain that disappeared one day. He told me he got an email, or he got a DM saying, "We're shutting down Loom Network tomorrow.".

Zeugh: (both laughing).

Nicholas: So, but it's just part of the story at a point, like if the community had been strong enough, you don't need to have this singular asset, you can be dynamic with how you, really it's how the community relates to itself or to other communities. They could be interacting with each other's state on chain much more and trying to, I don't know. I feel there's a lot of possibilities for like partnerships. or I saw somebody this week from the Webiverse community who was tweeting like, I think Webiverse tweeted an image of like an almost N64 game cover of like some Webiverse scenario with different characters, almost like a movie poster. And then a member of their community just like Photoshopped in their NFT collection in the background, like, you know, with a comment like, "You gotta do it," or something. And it's like this social dimension of like, what if you just included us in your thing? Either saying it on chain or off chain can really make it real. So it's interesting that, have you seen anybody else use the Jokedow contract yet? Is it, or are there other people who are interested in doing not strictly the first party Jokedow project?

Sean McCaffery: - Yeah, actually, well, for one, Django, who's listening now, reached out on Twitter and was like, "Hey, we might be interested "in experimenting with this.".

Nicholas: - Awesome.

Sean McCaffery: - Earlier, Zouk was like, "That'd be cool.". I've also had a couple other projects reach out to me. Like one even today actually sent me like a technical spec of a project that they wanted to do is just basically like, hey, we have a community and we wanna get community input and we wanna reward them for doing this. This is like a one-to-one of what you're doing with Jokedow. Are XYZ functionality available in the Jokedow smart contract or like the site? Can we just like use the site as it is right now? And I was like, yeah, no, that's all like ready to go. You can use it. So doing things like that, something we're also really excited about is like, I think, so like product development and like having user-driven products could be a really cool use case of this as well of like. something that we are going to do and like is next on our roadmap because it will determine the roadmap from there is by having a user-driven roadmap. So we'll do a joke race and we'll have anyone who holds joke be able to like propose a feature that they'd like to see implemented. And then we hold joke races for people to vote on which features they'd like. So like that's another really cool use case that we're excited about. And like how you can like actually have a DAO or a product or an open source project that's driven by the community and the people that are contributing to it.

Zeugh: - I'm super curious about something that might not be that technical or that relevant on Jokedow, but I see that a proposal open period is timed in seconds. I'm very curious why.

Sean McCaffery: - Yeah, that's a great question. And was like something me and David went back and forth on. And so it ultimately comes down to like at the block level, it's at some point, you're gonna have to be able to like specify things in terms of at least for what we needed with looking at like. when you get a snapshot, like you have to kind of specify that in block number. It's hard to, because you can't know exactly what block number will come at a certain time. We needed to do, we at first I had implemented it with everything's in terms of block numbers, right? But then David came back and was like, well, it'd be really nice to be able to say, this contest is starting at X time and this contest is ending at like. it's ending in an hour. Because not only is that just how humans like generally we usually do time regularly is, but also if we're gonna be deploying across a bunch of different chains, like different chains have different block times. So to as much of an extent, especially on the user facing side as possible, we wanted to make it so that like the inputs that people were doing were timed in like human time or UTC time instead of block number. If you were asking in like why we did seconds instead of having like a time input, I guess that's just kind of like laziness on my part. And like, we were going for functionality. Once we get like funding from grants and stuff, we're going, we have a UI designer that we're gonna bring on and she's amazing. So she'll make that stuff look better and make the inputs nicer depending on what your question was.

Zeugh: - Yeah, it was about why. seconds, but yeah, it makes sense that it'll change with time and it's better to be very specific than too generic at early stages. So yeah, it doesn't make sense. Just caught me off guard. I'm like, okay, seconds, really? Awesome, okay.

Nicholas: - Sean, did you see Sammy Bausch? I forget the name of the project, Orchids, that is flower project on Polygon was set based on like human time, whatever. And Polygon went offline for six hours and the oldest NFTs in the collection died because he couldn't water them and they were set to expire in like an hour of day rather than a block height.

Sean McCaffery: - Oh no, no, I hadn't heard about that. - Yeah.

Nicholas: - Dang. - So it was like a edge case of that choice that you made that exists on sidechains in a way that you don't maybe think about it on mainnet as much and like Solana too, I guess.

Sean McCaffery: - No, definitely. Yeah, that's true. It's not necessarily something I have thought of that particular case. that's interesting. I think the solution for that, I guess, would be like, yeah, I guess how we've made it is like it'd be really, you could just be like, okay, we're deploying another one. Like just throw that old one away. Like it doesn't mean anything. And then the, yeah, layer zero is like, okay, we'll just like, okay, we're doing them though, like a day later. - Right, right, right. - But interesting. Yeah, I hadn't heard about that.

Nicholas: - Right. By the way, you built this thing so fast. I'm super impressed.

Sean McCaffery: - Thank you, I appreciate it. I mean, I cannot shill Scaffold East enough. Like I went pretty, like I have a background in software engineering, but not a whole lot in front end. I went pretty zero to one with the help of Scaffold East. So big shout out to that. It was so helpful.

Nicholas: - That's sick. And you also got this like multi-network deploy thing working this, maybe you could talk a little bit about how you did that.

Sean McCaffery: - Yeah, where you can like deploy to whatever layer two or sidechain that you want.

Nicholas: - Yeah, because you're also deploying to the same address, I guess, and I don't know. Well, yeah, maybe tell me a little bit about it.

Sean McCaffery: - Yeah, for sure. Unfortunately, yeah, I think it, whatever chain you deploy to, you deploy to a new, like each contract will be deployed to a new address. That's something we didn't think about. That's a good point. Like if we were to do it on another, like if we were to do next week's joke race on another chain, it would be a new address. But actually like in this, I mean, I won't get too ideological, but I mean, this is a reason that like, I'm a very big fan of Ethereum. It's like, because of how, you know, custom like compatible the ecosystem has been made and composable it's been made. And like, as long as a chain follows the EVM standards, like you can deploy the same contract to Polygon, XDAI, Arbitrum, Optimism, Avalanche, like you can, it's the same bytecode. And so for me, it was really easy. Actually, Scalability has provided this like right out of the box. They provided that little switch up in the top right-hand corner. You can click that. And like, as long as you have an RPC endpoint, which is like, I guess to break down the technical jargon, it's like basically effectively a URL, like a .com or whatever, but for more protocol level requests. As long as you have one of those, which is really nice, Anchor actually provides free RPC endpoints to, I think it's Arbitrum, Polygon, Avalanche, like most of the ones that we have on the website. So we didn't even have to use Empyra except for Ethereum mainnet. As long as you have a URL to point to, then I just, you know, plugged and chugged. It was just a configuration file. It was really nice, very scalable, super easy to add extra ones.

Nicholas: - Interesting. So hold on, I'm trying to understand. So because there's no like a parent contract that you need to generate your own token and generate your own contest, the interface is essentially a contract deployer. Is that right? - Yes, exactly. - So I guess in future, maybe there could be some efficiency squeezed out of like having some initial deployed something or other that is a library or whatever that makes it cheaper or a proxy or something. But in principle, the buttons here are not even pointing at an existing contract yet. When you land on the page, they're set up for you to deploy on whichever network you choose. So they don't really need to know about each other.

Sean McCaffery: - Exactly. Yes. So like a big inspiration for this was there's, I'll speak at like a non-technical, but there's like a, even if some people in the chat might know what Docker is, I'll kind of like have a brief background of it. It's like basically like how software engineering has moved over the past like two decades or so is like before we had these massive computers where like, and massive like programs where a bunch of functionality would run like all within one program. And then a pattern that we've been seeing lately is like they've been like what they call containerized. And you'll take like how Netflix works is like every piece of the Netflix site is actually run by a separate program. So like if the log out button, if that program fails and it like, just like craps out and turns off, the rest of the website won't fail. Whereas before when you had these big monolithic programs, if one part failed, it brought everything else down. And so that general pattern is called microservices. And I see a very similar pattern in web three and smart contract coding practices right now, where right now you have this canonical contract that is deployed and everything points to it and you deal with it with that pattern. But the pattern that I like wanted to experiment with and that I think joked out and in general like scalability solutions for Ethereum are massive unlocks is like, yeah, the pattern that I want to get people using and like have joked out be a great first step for people is like, yeah, every time you need to do something new, just deploy a new contract. We're getting to the point where like gas costs is negligible, so just do it and just deploy. And if it messes up, as long as you don't, like stake tokens with real monetary value in them or anything, just throw it away and do it another time.

Nicholas: - It's interesting 'cause you think the first, I had the same reaction when I first came to EVM, which is like, okay, but are you meant to, like why should things be centralized at all then? Why doesn't everybody just have their own contract? if there's like a standard, like NFTs, especially shared contracts made very little sense to me when I first showed up. I actually don't know why. I mean, it seems like one obvious reason is to sort of agglomerate power in a centralized structure, but maybe what you're saying actually is like, even you don't need to imagine a world in which everything is disposable because actually there is this enduring social community that like potentially survives any particular transient contracts, be they token generators or some other kind of state manipulators, or even just like, I was talking about earlier this week, but like contracts that just emit events that don't even have state really, to use like the graph as a database or whatever, you can move between these contracts and still have something that survives them without a monolithic contract.

Sean McCaffery: - Yeah, no, exactly. I think that's a great argument. And then I also like historical materialism, I guess I bring this lens too, but like, I think it makes a lot of sense for why things are the way they are right now is right now you've had like, it's been L1s that layer one chains that have been competing. And I think a lot of what we've seen so far, like DeFi especially, a lot of crypto use cases have been heavily financialized. And so when you have like real material, like things that are being traded for real money, it makes a lot of sense to have one canonical contract, right? Like for most DeFi protocols, you need to have a place where the liquidity is stored, like AMMs, like automated market makers, what Uniswap is, you have to like, how they work is you have to have all the money in one place. But I think especially for use cases that aren't financialized, Ethereum and then blockchains, it's really just code. So, and code can run in all sorts of different ways. I think, yeah, as we're like getting to more use cases that are less financialized, the need to have the security and like, especially you run into the issue where like, most people are not technical and will not look into the smart contract code. So it's useful to have one canonical one to point everyone to and be like, you're safe if you're dealing with this smart contract. But yeah, as we move into new use cases, I think we'll start to move into more like, okay, we don't need code to operate in exactly this way. so much going forward.

Nicholas: - Have you, well, two things actually, do you know create two? I've never used it, but you can like determine the deploy address in advance. I assume it works cross EVM, like you could know on all networks what the token's address would be. - Oh, wow, no, I haven't heard of that before. - I haven't used it myself, but it seems hot.

Sean McCaffery: - Yeah, I mean, that would be pretty rocking.

Nicholas: - It'd be cool, 'cause then you could have the same token address for projects on the protocol, or it's not even a protocol, projects using the protocol or something. I mean, they're almost, they're not forks exactly, but they're deploys of, I guess it is truly a protocol, a protocol that shouldn't require any centralized infrastructure, aside from what is agreed upon as the rule by all participants.

Sean McCaffery: - Yeah, no, and I think these types of discussions are what I'm most excited about. And like, ultimately the thesis of Joketow and what we are building right now is like, I think we're moving into a time in web three development where we're gonna start asking these questions. Like, I think what is considered quote, a protocol will start to look a lot different and will start to, I think, be defined more and more in terms of who rather than what. It's like, what is this group of people doing? Do they, are they using 10 different protocols? Are they using one? Like, what a protocol is, I think will, yeah, I think we'll start to see a trend more towards like, ephemeral structures and like, that groups of people that spin up to do stuff, or like, if you want a longer term project, like you could also call that a protocol. But yeah, I mean, I think the questions you're asking are really interesting. And like, we're moving into a time where we're gonna start like seeing a lot more exploration of what those things can be. And what they can look like.

Nicholas: - It's cool. It's pretty exciting to, and the fact that it's not just ideas, but you've built a tool so people can do it. Do you think that the, would it be, would you consider in a future iteration doing like a proxy pattern or like a library or something? Do you have ideas about efficiency in that way? Or is it less important than maybe the functionality growing first?

Sean McCaffery: - Yeah, that's a good question. I think, yeah, I think I've definitely, we definitely prioritize the latter. 'Cause I, at least the thesis that I've been running with, and like, is a little, is a little obnoxious. Like, you know, it's always important. It's important to, you know, worry about gas prices and things. But I'm like, in a couple of years, gas prices are going to be negligible. Like, I strongly believe, like I think that Ethereum's roll-up centric roadmap is really good. And like scale, I'm very confident in the scalability solutions that are coming, right? And things are still expensive, but like once roll-ups get online, like it's really, I believe that gas is going to be negligible. So I've been more rolling with the like, let's make stuff really cool and super easy for anyone to like spin up. And let's just like build new features and like get the functionality in. Like a lot of people have been asking for like a vote decay function. So like the longer that you wait to vote, the less voting power your delegated tokens actually have. So things like that, I'd be really interested in like experimenting with governance and experimenting with how groups of people can coordinate and collude with each other. Or like the more positive connotation, like coordinate with each other to make decisions and work together.

Nicholas: - Sounds sick. Oh man, I got to participate. So the jokes are already in, but people can vote, right? Or I guess you have to already have tokens. So unless I go buy someone's tokens, I can't vote in this round.

Sean McCaffery: - Yeah, actually this week's joke race ended at 1 p.m. Eastern.

Nicholas: - Oh, so it's only an hour. - Yeah. - Okay, this is the weird thing. I never understood about mirror. I found the scheduling very difficult to understand that it's only a short duration. It's not a week-long voting period. It's like an hour, in this case an hour. Okay, so it really works quite a bit like gray race.

Sean McCaffery: - Yeah, well, yeah, that's what we mirrored after. I mean, you could have a week-long joke. Like that's fully configurable. Like if somebody were to make their own contest with their own token, you can configure it to be however long you like. - Okay, got it. - Joke race in particular is only, we have been following what we did with mirror. So the next one will be, I guess I'll show a little bit of like how joke race works and like how people can get involved if they're interested. It's like, we do it every week. What we're going to do going forward for the foreseeable or short-term future, we might like that. I'm just saying like we might go to different chains and experiment with different stuff there, but the process will likely be the same. The next one is for next week. example, for example, on Thursday at like 12 p.m., we'll take a snapshot of everyone that owns the joke token on Ethereum mainnet and distribute voting tokens for next week's joke race on Polygon. And you'll have from 12 p.m. Eastern on Thursday to 12 p.m. Eastern on Friday to one proposed jokes. And we allow one address per, we allow one proposal, joke proposal per address. And also we're going to allow anyone to submit jokes regardless of if they own joke token or not. And as long as you submit with an ENS, we'll like airdrop joke to you to like get people that this may be their like their first like time interacting with the Web3 project. So they don't have, they don't even have Matic to do anything with. We wanna like get them into the ecosystem. So as long as you submit a proposal or submit a joke, you'll get airdropped joke. And also if you'd like between Thursday and Friday, you can delegate your votes to people 'cause we have that functionality built into the token that we release. And then on Friday at 12 p.m. Eastern, the joke race starts and it runs through 1 p.m. Eastern. And that's when we decide who wins, which is the second highest voted joke.

Zeugh: - Very important question about it. Were the jokes any good?

Sean McCaffery: - Yeah, yeah. Actually, let me grab it. I can share, I don't know the best way to share it, but if you go to jokedow.io and you look at like the latest contest that we just ran today, I thought they were pretty good. They're pretty funny. What was the one that won today? Let's see. I'm actually going to jokedow.io right now. And you can see the contract address if you click the instructions tab. And then I want to play a joke race on Polygon. You should take that contract address and plug it in. The winning joke today was why do Tom Holland, Andrew Garfield, and Tobey Maguire like driving in cities? They're good parallel parkers. So, I don't know. I thought that one was pretty good. That was the winner.

Zeugh: - Yeah, it is.

Nicholas: - Yeah. - Damn, okay, okay. - In second. - It's good with the address in there. So, everyone should grab the address and plug it in from the instructions so you can see the prior jokes. I'll post the link in the Twitter thing.

Sean McCaffery: - Yeah, for sure. If you want to, here, I can send you a link. Jokedow, we tweeted out like the full instructions, like the link as well as the contract address. And a feature that we want to implement very soon is being able to have the contract address embedded in the link. So, you can just send a link and it automatically populates that. But, yeah.

Nicholas: - That'll be great. I guess it could be, it's interesting that it's sort of like, obviously it's like a prototype, but it's like in web two. you would do a share page versus a create page. But it is kind of interesting, I'm sure eventually it'll be made cleaner, but it is kind of interesting that the tool for creating them is the same tool for viewing them right now. You're very close to like making your own contest at all times.

Sean McCaffery: - Yeah, yeah, no, that's definitely, I think the ethos that we're going for is like, yeah, yeah, experiment with it and just like spin stuff up and see what happens.

Zeugh: - And I can bring any ERC20 in here and make a contest voting with it, or do I need it to be an ERC20 vote?

Sean McCaffery: - Yeah, in order to vote with it, it has to be an ERC20 votes. But at the bottom of the page, if you scroll all the way down, there's a dropdown called if you want to wrap a pre-existing ERC20 to have ERC20 votes functionality, and you can deploy your own wrapper contract from there as well, if you'd like, and then wrap up your tokens and then vote with them. Or the preferred strategy that we always suggest is if you have a pre-existing ERC20 token, to avoid having to have your users go and bridge and wrap, just take a snapshot of all the holders and airdrop it to people. Airdrop a proportional amount of those voting tokens to the holders. And we're working with Coinvise to possibly make that even smoother so that it's not a manual process. You can just say, this is the ERC20 that I want to snapshot, and then I'm going to press a button and we'll distribute the voting token to all the holders of that.

Nicholas: If that makes sense. - So Coinvise, I haven't used Coinvise yet. They do snapshotting and issuance of tokens or just the snapshotting piece?

Sean McCaffery: - Yeah, currently they have an airdrop product. And we're working, so you can enter a bunch of addresses and airdrop them to people. And something that we're working with them on is adding another step to that. So you don't even have to manually get all the addresses yourself. You could use a snapshot strategy because the company Snapshot has open-sourced all the strategies that they use. I think Juicebox uses this to grab all of the holders. And so if you could integrate that and have it be a one-click thing to say, all right, I want to use this strategy and then distribute a voting token to all the people designated by this strategy, that'd be pretty kick-ass.

Zeugh: - Oh, I did not know Coinvise. I'm taking a look at it here. Looks super cool.

Sean McCaffery: - Yeah, they're pretty sick.

Nicholas: - So they do the piece. I was curious, just as you were saying, what the fastest way to generate a snapshot is for people.

Sean McCaffery: - Oh, yeah. I mean, what I did is I went to Etherscan. I downloaded the list of holders and how many tokens they held and then used the airdrop function with that list of addresses. - But the better way of doing it, especially when you have hundreds of thousands of holders, is to use a snapshot strategy, programmatically generate that list of addresses and then airdrop.

Nicholas: - Okay, okay. Very cool. I haven't played with snapshot strategies.

Sean McCaffery: - Yeah, they're definitely, it'd be really cool. Yeah, I'd be really excited to make a UI for it. 'cause right now, if one is able to spin up, it's fairly technical, it's all code, but it's really cool. 'cause you can basically just say, yeah, these are the people that I want. Give me all the addresses that X and then you can just pull them all and airdrop to them. I think it's a really efficient way to do airdrops and take snapshots of communities, which I think is cool.

Nicholas: - Wow. Yeah, Django, if you wanna come talk about any of this, I'm super curious. Seems like so many fun things you could do. It's interesting to do frivolous things on other networks also. Maybe we should do a joked out on, I don't know, BSC right now.

Sean McCaffery: - I can do it. I can plug it in. I don't know how I feel about BSC.

Nicholas: - Okay, okay, we won't do BSC. Oh, you got Phantom, Harmony. I've never used, I think maybe Phantom slightly, but never used Avalanche yet. XDAI, oh, I have a little Gnosis, whatever, token. I could, we could do something if anyone's got an idea for what we should do as a contest.

Zeugh: We could make an XDAI out of the POAPs that we have, maybe taking a snapshot of that, how many POAPs you have on XDAI, and then just make it a contest that you voted the POAP power you got. So the most events you attended, most votes you have.

Sean McCaffery: - Oh my God, I love that. No, you should total POAP power, baby. That's amazing.

Nicholas: - Okay, but nobody, okay, we gotta, I gotta figure out how to make a POAP right now and give it to everybody here. That's pretty good.

Zeugh: - Oh, I made, I went to a bar yesterday with some guys from eFloripa. We made a group here, and I made a POAP out of, hey, you met Zug, or it only has the link of my ENS, so I somehow like to give my contact to everyone, so you just get the POAP, and then you get the contact info from the POAP. Very, very useful, useful tool. The modern business card is a POAP.

Nicholas: - Amazing. Okay, I'm gonna try and figure out how to do this. Hey, Django, how's it going?

Jango: - Having a great time, listening to y'all.

Zeugh: God damn.

Sean McCaffery: - Go Heels, baby!

Jango: - Go Heels, hell yeah. I was just watching the pre-press conferences earlier. I hopped on like 30 minutes late, 'cause I was, you already know what you're gonna hear, but it's just like, it just gets you a little excited. - Yeah, I'm so amped, dude.

Nicholas: - You're going, right?

Sean McCaffery: - Yeah, I'm heading up to Chapel Hill tomorrow.

Jango: - So damn good, oh. - Yeah, enjoy the hell out of that. Have you been there for a championship?

Sean McCaffery: - Yeah, actually my freshman year was 2016 when we won, so that was quite the intro to Carolina basketball.

Zeugh: - Sick, hell yeah. - Yeah.

Jango: - That was one year after I graduated. I was there for the finals when I think Villanova hit that last shot.

Sean McCaffery: - Oh, that's cool.

Jango: - But then I was there again for the year after. Definitely did the buying flights, like right when you knew it was gonna go down, but can't make it up this time. Enjoy it. Yo, this joke contest is really rad, though. I think the thing that stuck out to me as you were talking is the idea of like snapshotting current holders and then just doing the ballot on chain as opposed to like a snapshot ballot on a main net. Could be interesting. I suppose like it always begs the question of like what your priorities are. Like is the snapshot really that much more inconvenient or like centralized than like some on-chain alternative, like the inconvenience of going to another chain and like claiming an airdrop and voting there or like on-chain, like via sending a transaction. 'Cause it's like easy for any Juicebox project currently to download a list of all token holders and create like the snapshot and like the technical sense of holders and then do the airdrop on another chain. And I love the idea of like every, since like Juicebox treasuries often run on a routine, like every two weeks or whatever, you can easily say, all right, FC 18 is gonna happen, like the ballot for like that governance cycle is gonna happen over there. And then it's like those who are engaging in governance are gonna go through the extra like micro step and those who aren't just like are gonna stay in that week. But then you can also build up like some like repertoire of folks who do participate in governance more often and like over time that builds its own like micro weight alongside the standard issuance policies, which could be interesting. There's like a lot to it from, I guess digesting and talking throughout out here as I digest, but there's a lot of cool stuff that like is probably, it's certainly gonna like, it's certainly worth considering alongside the standard, you know, all right, roll a Governor Bravo contract and then do on chain on mainnet and like just, you know, gas expensive, no problem, do delegates. So it's cool to think about here, especially it's perfect timing. So we're about to do this V2 stuff and then we have this whole like staking stuff coming up. We're gonna do more like NFT voting, but I love the idea of disposability here that you're introducing.

Sean McCaffery: - Thanks, yeah. - Making me think. - Yeah, something, yeah, I think you bring up a really good point, which is something that we were thinking about a couple of days ago is like, you were saying like you can maybe gather and like get this group of curators. Like what were you thinking with? like the UX or like product development roadmap? with like having users vote on which features they want? Like say you do like five of those as a company and like you have this consistent group of users that are always like thinking of really good features, right? Someone like another company could say, whoa, okay, this group of users are really good for curating. Like they know what pain points are and they know like the right things to prioritize. I'm gonna take a snapshot of all of the voting tokens that they had and I'm going to distribute my own token based on that snapshot and then run a contest and say, hey, I'm gonna like, you're clearly a good curator. I'm just gonna take your on-chain data like and give you votes if you'd be interested or I'll pay you if you vote in this. I think a big like unlock is like off-chain stuff just isn't programmatic in the same way. that like the code on the world computer is because you can use these tokens, like who knows down the line, it may be a voting token now, but like it could also serve as like a POAP that you made a really important decision, like design decision, or you were an active member of the community in the future and can be like composed on going forward.

Jango: - Yeah, that's a great point. And if you're doing it on other chains and you can store arbitrary information in that voting action and it's pennies, which is great.

Nicholas: - Django, do you think it's possible to, I didn't totally follow that voting could somehow be like snapshot voting could be replaced by joked out voting? Can they plug into each other like that?

Jango: - It's more so the idea that right now we have JVX folders to participate in snapshot votes. And you can imagine like instead of a JVX being like the governance token, you can have like a FC 18 token that can live exclusively on. That's cool. - And that is a snapshot of JVX holders. at a particular, maybe at the end or at the end of like, or rather at the start of FC 17, you issue FC 18 tokens. So you have like two weeks to like already go and claim and do whatever the hell you need to do to get set up. And then the ballot can take place on chain. The results of which still have to be conveyed on chain on mainnet via the multi-six stewards. So you wouldn't convey, you wouldn't actually like take the action on chain, but you could at least like replace the snapshot component with this other like disposable contract. But it's only disposable to the extent that no one then chooses to leverage anything that was stored in those interactions for other things.

Nicholas: - It's interesting 'cause if you like voting, even in on-chain voting, if you're voting with the token, the, like if you made, not disposable, but if you made every governance cycle have its own voting token, they could even be like soul-bound non-transferable such that in the future, you could check who participated in the vote without needing to do off-chain

Zeugh: analysis,

Nicholas: like without needing the graph. You could on-chain check, I guess in some eventual future where like the chain is pruned or whatever, or I don't

Zeugh: know, ETH2

Nicholas: something, something, then maybe sort of making that data hot again would still be more costly than just kind of having everything in memory as we do now. But you could imagine like, I don't know, I guess I don't know compound governance well enough, but I imagine you don't right there have, did you have access directly to how people voted in prior governance? I guess so, I guess it's all there.

Jango: - The snapshot-able, well, the ERC20 votes and the ERC721 votes, you can go back in history and see.

Nicholas: - But off-chain, right?

Jango: - It's on, you know, I don't know the spec, I'm kind of speaking, but I'm fairly sure that they're snapshot-able in that every time a token is transferred, that like movement is actually like recording the previous state. So you can always look back on like someone's holdings at a previous point in time.

Nicholas: - From within the scope of the chain? - Okay, so from, okay, interesting.

Sean McCaffery: - Yeah, I can speak to that, that is true. You can, any arbitrary block number for an ERC20 votes token, you can call and say, what was the number of votes that X address had at this block number?

Nicholas: - Oh, okay, okay, so you don't need, okay. Still, it is interesting to think that you could, I guess then if you're doing on-chain votes, then, hmm, hmm, hmm, because if you have that data on-chain, be it through having a FC17 vote token or a on-chain governance vote, then you can even do, I guess there's no point to do the calculation for the airdrop on-chain, you might as well do that off-chain, but you could say, you know, people who voted in FC17, I particularly like how they voted and wanna airdrop just to them, or only people who voted in these 10 governance cycles, but, you know, not this particular governance cycle.

Sean McCaffery: - Exactly, yeah, no, a great idea.

Jango: - Yeah, totally, especially, and it leaves room for certain organizations to mature and kind of stiffen up, and then others

Zeugh: to come

Jango: along and make those more malleable choices to include or exclude based on behavior, which is great, 'cause it just breeds more, like, sense of purpose over time in more experiments.

Nicholas: - Yo, Madam Cult Leader, welcome, how's it going?

Sean McCaffery: - Hey, Anne.

madamcultleader: - Hey, hey, girlies. So I always wanna come up, I was really enjoying, like, my mind was being blown in the audience. I was like, whoa, big brain moments. So it was lovely hearing you guys talk and kind of, like, go back and forth about Jokedow and other, you know, future potentials. But one thing I wanted to add from the community standpoint is, like, I wonder, I was realizing that Jokedow, the functionality has huge unlocks for onboarding people into understanding what governance is on-chain, because the ease, I mean, I'm experienced, right? So I know how to do all this stuff, but the ease at which I could, you know, plug this in, vote on-chain, sign the transaction, switch change thematic, whatever it was, I realized it was like, oh, this could be a really fun and engaging way to, like, show a community how to even do governance. And it could be like, you know, you could have joke contests every week, and in my Discord, I wonder. And I just realized that, like, this type of thing is the unlock that I've been waiting for to, like, onboard the new persona I have to get why Web3 can, like, you know, just empower people. So that's what I'm bullish on on Jokedow. I'm like, this is the thing that will get people the technical skills needed to really start getting their feet into the pool and then kind of diving into the deep end from that.

Nicholas: - Yeah, definitely. I think you're right. What's your first contest gonna be?

madamcultleader: - Oh my God, I have no clue. But it's early iterations, 'cause we'll have a Wonder token eventually in our roadmap at Wonder, and, like, I was thinking, I was like, you know, just listening to you guys, like, could take a snapshot, you know, of all the token holders, and then do a joke contest. (laughs) And I could, you know, we could reward people with Wonder. So it starts to, like, make all these different, like, I don't know, just, like, this intermingling between governance, community, and just, like, social coordination, it starts to make them less of, like, trying to think, I think in, like, chemistry terms, it starts to make more equilibrium monikers between them, rather than, like, directional, right? So you have, like, you can go either way, and it can go between any of them, and you start having this, like, greater synergy between all those things, which are kind of similar, but now we have the blockchain to do, like, the economic and data part of the thing we've always been doing as humans. So I'm excited.

Sean McCaffery: - I'm really glad that it was such a, oh, go ahead, Zouk.

Zeugh: - Oh, go on, go on.

Sean McCaffery: - I was just gonna say, like, yeah, and I think, like, I'm glad you said that. I was glad it was such a smooth experience, and, like, I really, I think that's a great, like, vision of the future, too, that I share, is, like, something that we, so, like, even on the technical side, something that we initially was in our first iteration is. the first step was that you were going to have to start with JokeToken, bridge it to Polygon, wrap it into ERC-20 Votes tokens, and then delegate to yourself, and then you could vote. And especially David pushed back on that a lot, and was like, all right, how can we make this as easy as possible for someone to just, like, show up on the site and not have to do anything and just go? And that's, I'm glad to hear that, like, you found it to be a smooth experience, 'cause, like, something that I was excited about, too, is I was like, huh, like, thinking about that, like, the general model of how Votes tokens work is, like, initially, when you get airdropped them, they aren't delegated to anyone. And if you don't even self-delegate, you can't vote after the snapshot's taken. So I changed, like, just one line of code in the smart contract to say, all right, if these airdrop tokens, if these tokens are airdropped to people, just auto-delegate them to people. Like, don't make them go through that step. It just resolves to the owner. And so that was, like, a big thing that we tried to make so that people could just, like, show up and do a transaction and, like, see how it all worked and see it live, but also not have to worry about, like, on the smart contract side. I might be singing my own praises. I'm just glad. I'm really happy to hear that it was, like, easy. That was exactly what we were going for. So it makes me excited to hear that that was your experience.

madamcultleader: - No, yeah, I think that, like, it's so critical that people, and the space is not recorded. People get off their own asses, right? It's like, I get, you know, it's like on the technical side, especially if people, like, want to do all this, like, fancy stuff. But, like, at the end of the day, if we're trying to onboard people in a legitimate, functional way, like, we need to abstract things in the way Jokedow's abstracting them. And I have yet to see an abstraction like Jokedow, even snapshot. I have been Web3 for, like, I mean, before it was called Web3, for, like, this one, almost three years. And, like, I've never used snapshot. But when I used Jokedow, I was like, this is what I've been waiting for, right? This is the feel of, like, oh, yeah, let me just sign this transaction. But again, L2s didn't exist three years ago in the same functionality they're existing in now. So, like, it was only at this moment in time, and this is why I love Web3 so much, we're seeing, like, only these moments in time where things are possible. And I feel like Jokedow's a perfect example of this, where it's like, not until now was Jokedow possible. But what you're doing, Sean, and, you know, Divine Economy, what you guys are doing is, like, taking advantage of all these new

Sean McCaffery: tools

madamcultleader: that, like, not even snapshot is doing in a way that can engage new people and, like, get fresh blood into, like, the governance ecosystem of Web3.

Sean McCaffery: - Thank you. Yeah, super aligned on that vision. I agree. It's very, I don't know, it does feel like, I don't know, I know we've used this term before, and, but, like, divine timing. Like, I just see, I agree. I think it's, like, this moment of time, like, we're in an intersection. We're moving to the point that, like, gas costs are going to, like, primarily gas costs are the thing I'm like, you know, there's some really cool stuff. Like, you can get, like, a 15% interest rate on the U.S. dollar, but it's gonna cost you, like, $500 to do it. And so, like, I feel like we're moving into an era where, hopefully, that's not the primary concern anymore.

Zeugh: - Well, thinking on how those WRAP ERC-20 votes are transferable, I'm very curious as things like, maybe in WANDR, you start using WRAP ERC-20 and WANDR on MATIC to vote how the dynamic goes, as those are also transferable, and the WANDRs are transferable in the actual ERC-20. So, with time, as the snapshot passes and you have different contests, different people will have this "same" ERC-20, but their dropped one, not actually the same token, and how voting on contests versus actually tokens held are gonna have different balances and different choosing powers between different people at two different tokens. That's gonna be something interesting to see how this dynamic evolves when you actually take the token and make it a specific voting version of it, or voting in a specific contest or a specific context as a general. I just keep imagining how many cool things can come out of this, like so many different social dynamics.

madamcultleader: - And I think the phase one, and again, I had a call with the other community person that works at WANDR, and I was like, "Yo, Cam, this is gonna be huge, "and we need to be the first at WANDR to do this,". and a real integration in our community with the help of Jokedow, but the first percolations of strategy in my mind are, "Okay, we have to start with this, "I like this joke framework, "because what that does is it allows us to spin up "a quote-unquote useless token, "or a place to point the wallets "that are gonna have WANDR, "or even just people participating. "to just get their wallet addresses. "and airdrop them a number of tokens.". So just starting with useless, right? These tokens have no value, 'cause we haven't launched the WANDR token yet. To then build up to a strategic framework of how do you data mine? Do you only use the base WANDR token to vote? Do you use an abstracted WANDR token that we just airdrop to people? Is it gonna be like, how does that governance mechanism look? That is as kind of a system, rather than just one-off events. So my plan is to start with, this is for fun, there's no monetary gain or value, this is just a way to engage the community, to get people's skillset up to date with how to switch networks, or switch chains, excuse me, how to look at your wallet for different tokens, all that good stuff. So educating newbies in how to do that, and then also seeing how people respond to that kind of voting system, and then build governance around behavior for when we eventually become a DAO. So that's kind of the roadmap in my mind. But yeah, we'll see what happens.

Nicholas: - Yeah, it's hazardous to think that any token has no value. It's like, just you wait. You never know.

madamcultleader: - Oh no, don't say that.

Nicholas: - No, no, I mean, no, no, I'm saying like, it's interesting that the, just the fact of the transactions, you know, we never know what, I don't know, what foundation auctions you bid on will be, how that will be interpreted by the future and used to airdrop you or, I don't know, cancel you or something. You never know. I don't know. Yeah. But it's cool. You can start with these as sort of just like, I guess the point is that on all these chains, any piece of data can just become financialized at any point, or financialized in the broad sense, like including collectibles and even just memory. There's no, if the data is on chain, then, and even if it's on chain in such a way that it's not directly readable by another contract, it may be interpreted and repurposed.

Sean McCaffery: - You're not wrong.

Nicholas: For JokeDAO, does, so the tokens, they're not, they're wrapped, like they're in, the original tokens are in a vault or you're issuing new tokens?

Sean McCaffery: - Yeah, great question. So the JokeDAO like canonical original token is an ERC, a raw ERC-20 on Ethereum mainnet. And we have like a liquidity pool for them and stuff like that on Uniswap. And so for this JokeRace this past week, what we did, yeah, we took a snapshot of all the holders as of like 2 p.m. Eastern on Wednesday. And I looked at all the addresses and what all addresses held what. And then I just like airdrop, I created a new token. And the name of the token is April 1st, 2022. JokeRace votes token. And I airdropped that everybody according to the snapshot that I took. So the thing, the token that was voted with this week is an ERC-20 votes token that was created on Wednesday and deployed on Polygon. The original Joke. token is a raw ERC-20 on Ethereum mainnet.

Nicholas: - Very cool.

Jango: - And those folks who got airdropped, the only action they take is then to participate in the voting, right? There's no subsequent like a claim they have to do or because of that line you wrote. Or I guess they can either delegate or just participate right away. Is that right? - Yep.

Sean McCaffery: - Yeah, exactly. If they would like to delegate, they have the choice to do that before the snapshot. If not, it defaults to just auto delegating to them.

Jango: - So prior to the snapshot of, so the April 1st one, once the snapshot is taken and distributed, then they can just participate. But prior to it, there's a snapshotting, there's delegation functionality. Can you walk me through that?

Sean McCaffery: - Yeah, for sure. I can go through the full flow. So on like 2 p.m. Eastern time on Wednesday, I airdropped the token to a bunch of people. And I'm not sure, I forget when exactly I made the snapshot. Sorry, I'm using snapshot in two different ways. One is the snapshot of Ethereum mainnet joke, ERC20 holders that we took and distributed the token on Polygon to those people. And then the second snapshot is for the actual joke race contest itself, that's saying who is delegated how many votes? And that number of votes is how many votes each address gets. So like the joke race votes snapshot was looking at a certain time and saying, how many votes does a certain person have? So running through the timeline, I airdropped the tokens at like two and then people had from like two to five. And in following weeks, we're gonna give people 24 hours, but we just kind of wanted to like see what happened this week. From like 2 p.m. to five, people had the chance to delegate their tokens and allocate votes how they'd like. And at five, the snapshot, that was what I set the snapshot vote for the joke race. So when it came time to vote, the joke race looked at that block and said, all right, what were the delegated votes at this block? That determines how many votes people get. But then like once you've delegated, done all that stuff, all you have to do like when it's in between that time and the voting time, you can make a proposed vote. And then when it comes time to vote, you can just go ahead and vote. No other intermediary steps.

Jango: - Got it, cool. And so the centralized bits that you're in charge of are the two snapshotting moments. And those, can they be automated, do you imagine? Or those are almost always required, like there should always be a steward to kind of carry out those intents, like given a larger community with, I guess like stricter requirements, how would you imagine going about that?

Sean McCaffery: - Oh, these could for sure be automated. They would, I guess you could automate them on chain with Keeper if you wanted, but also like in terms of process, all you need to do for the first snapshot, which is like distributing these one-off tokens is getting a list of addresses that you want to distribute to and then getting a list of addresses, creating the token and then airdropping to that. So using like a snapshot strategy and then using jokedout.io to create the token and then like Coinvice or some other airdrop platform to actually do the airdrop to people, that can all be automated, I think. Like I'm sure, like I know Disperse app, I think might have an API, but I'm pretty sure all of that can be done programmatically. And then with the second snapshot, literally all that is is a configuration. So when you like go to jokedout.io, click that button, it has just like an input form to say what block would you like to take the delegate vote snapshot at? And so that part's fairly trivial. It's just whenever you make and deploy the contract, the contest contract, that's just the config that you set. Does that answer your question?

Jango: - Yeah, it did. I'm definitely a learner by doer. So definitely got to take a stab at it to fully wrap my head. But the steps are familiar. I think like, I reckon most airdrops that occur happen by similar, like a similar procedure, but I'm sure folks are trying new things all the time. So, and tools are evolving. But it sounds like you do need that like scripts to determine like the route of like all the addresses and quantities you want and that it's not like on-chain necessarily. So you can't automate it from a contract perspective. You do need to go through like certain tools and then re-upload the route. Is that correct?

Sean McCaffery: - Oh, interesting. Yeah, I guess I was thinking about it from a disposable perspective where like every time you have a new contest, you would airdrop a new token.

Jango: - For sure. I mean, yeah, I guess like super specifically, like let's say you do have a new contest regularly. Let's just take the JuiceBox example specifically and kind of trying to play out how this could work. Like every two weeks, there's you want to take a snapshot of current holders and issue the airdrop on a certain chain, like very much similar to how JokeDAO is doing it. The act of taking a snapshot and distributing those tokens, that has to be, like it can't be a public button that someone has the availability to press once and execute once in a guaranteed fashion. It has to be kind of an agreed upon procedure. that like someone is gonna do on behalf of the DAO. Or, yeah, I haven't played with snapshotting myself. So I'm definitely like wording things out in probably sloppy ways.

Nicholas: - Yeah, same, same. I want to practice with making snapshots for, even just putting out this pop, I didn't realize they have to approve your po-ops.

Sean McCaffery: - Yeah, unfortunately they kind of cracked down, I think like two months ago, 'cause they're being overwhelmed with traffic. And that's the new process that they have, at least temporarily.

Nicholas: - JokeDAO has no rate limits.

Sean McCaffery: - No. (laughing) But yeah, I think that's right on. I think like if, I think the biggest, like I think you can definitely do that process on-chain. The biggest issue would basically be taking a snapshot strategy, right? Like the TypeScript that they have and implementing that in Solidity. If you could do that and cover all your bases to make sure that you programmatically got all the holders that you cared about, yeah, you could have a on-chain button that you push to say, "All right, go ahead and scrape all the holders "and the amounts and create a new ERC20 "and distribute them to all those holders.". It might be like really expensive gas wise, but like I don't see a reason. that like, if there was a set spec'd out, like strategy that you wanted to follow and then time consistently that you wanted someone to be able to call that function and have those tokens be distributed. I don't see why that couldn't be on-chain.

Jango: - Got it. Okay, so one more step here. So if the original token's on mainnet and you want to run it on another chain, at some point you'd have to leave the chain to actually issue the new token on the other chain. So maybe there's that kind of period where there's like a special party to kind of like. do the management there, or you just do a bridge, right? So I'm guessing you could do an Ethereum contract that just sends a message to an Arbitrum contract with just the root. And then from there, token holders perhaps won't get the token automatically. They'll have to claim it based on the values derived in the root. But it sounds like potentially possible. I don't know. This is interesting.

Sean McCaffery: - Yeah, I feel like, no, I hear what you're saying. I feel like the easiest and like most straightforward that we settled on is how we did it for Joke. Like, I feel like ultimately having this be done, like just, yeah, having someone designated to do it is the easiest, especially because like, it's pretty computationally intensive to run some of those snapshot strategies. So yeah, I guess what I'd suggest, like especially given like the juice box example, I think until like, until maybe like a best way or best practice of doing it on chain emerges, then like, yeah, I think like having somebody designated to go through, run a snapshot strategy, get those addresses, create a token on whatever rollup that you want to do the voting on and airdrop that rollup, I think having someone designated to do that would probably be the optimal way to do it. until like there's a canonical way that everyone agrees on, like, okay, we're cool to do this and like cool to make this programmatic and on chain. That makes a lot of sense.

Jango: - Cool, yeah. That checks out. Thank you.

Sean McCaffery: - Yeah, for sure.

Nicholas: - My mind is kind of blown, honestly. I need time to process Jokedow.

Sean McCaffery: - I love it. It's so, it's emergent. It's like, yeah, there's, I love having these conversations 'cause like y'all, yeah, I've been working on this for a month and y'all have brought up use cases that I like haven't thought about yet. This is an awesome conversation.

Zeugh: - I want to play some things on Jokedow. Can anyone send me some Matic? I'm trying to exchange if for Matic on Polygon and I don't have enough Matic.

Nicholas: - Yeah, let me just check if I have any, if I have anything left on Matic. If so, I'll send it to you now.

Zeugh: - Yeah, I did clear my Matic and now I cannot use it.

Nicholas: - Okay, but wait. Actually, this is a perfect time. I'll try and find the Matic and you and Django tell us about Rio and what Brazil is like right now or was when you were there.

Zeugh: - Well, if Rio was a fun experience, I've met, it was very different than what I'd expected. I went there expecting to find lots of Dell degenerates with crazy ideas and lots of weird faces and ended up finding in the first moment a way bigger number of Web 2 companies that are in tech and are trying to learn what all this Web 3 crypto thing is about and transition into it like so. There were lots of people that were like, had everything paid by their companies but they're not working in crypto at all. They're just there to see what's crypto about right now, what's Ethereum about right now. So that was the first shock of like, okay, this is not what I expected. And as I started talking to people and going through them, I met a lot, lots of cool people. Even, I mean, I think I met Dell builders and must have met like three or four, maybe five or six actually, with different Dells that were like, they're present talking about what they're doing. But yeah, mostly companies coming from trade markets, trying to learn what they should be learning to be part of this movement. And that was very interesting, thinking of like understanding the Brazilian ecosystem right now in crypto. But, well, my first impression was like, okay, this is not going to be so much fun as I expected. And well, as the time passed, talked to all those different folks in there. I've been like, I am one to talk a lot. I normally talk a fucking lot, but that week, gosh, I did. I lost my voice for some moment there. And there were very nice projects, lots of like Brazilian builders trying to start a project, trying to understand how to do it and going in a decentralized direction. Most of the people that did not know what they were doing there yet, or weren't still learning how to do it. That was fun. But yeah, in content specifically, I don't think I have seen many talks. Lots of things on universal basic income, how to use crypto and decentralization as ways to empower social movements. That was a big one. Gogo and Neo that are here on the listeners to my house and very nice points to also add. They've been part of the hackathon. So I guess they connected to more builders than I did. By the way, they won the hackathon, pretty nice project. I believe it's still running. So might be interesting to come on. - Yeah, I'd love to talk to you about it. - The hackathon project. But yeah, it was a very fun week. Rio was a crazy place to be surrounded by builders and like lots of ideas coming back and forth. But yeah, I think the best thing was meeting people there that I have talked here in Web3. I've been to my first time meeting people from crypto in real life. As well, I just joined through Discord. So it was a very, very interesting experience to meet someone that tells me, "Hey, we have already met in Discord or in Twitter.". And well, I'm not doxed, so I can't tell you who I am, but we've talked before. I was there fully doxed like, "Dude, you fucking know who I am. You fucking, I mean, you have a face to that BFP now and I have no idea who you are.". So yeah, that was definitely an educational experience. - Zero ex-FBI. - Yeah, I don't know if Django or Neo has what else to add, but take the floor.

Sean McCaffery: - I sent you some Matic, dude.

Nicholas: - Yeah, so you can stack your Matic. You're the fourth person to send him Matic.

Zeugh: (laughing) - I'm Matic rich now.

neodaoist: - What's funny is those five Matic is enough for like 10,000 transactions or something.

Zeugh: - Absolutely.

Nicholas: How's it going?

neodaoist: - Yeah, yeah, good, good to connect. And yeah, still processing Joked out too. And of course, sharpening my jokes for the next Joke Race.

Nicholas: - So for the listeners, we got Neo Daoist and Gogo who organized, what was the name of the project?

neodaoist: - Mosaic.

Nicholas: - Mosaic, okay.

neodaoist: - And this one is Mosaic o Brasileiro. So that's the first one we did.

Nicholas: - Yeah, maybe tell the people about it a little bit. I played a small, small role in taking a look at some of the art and there was some great stuff. And winners of E3O. I mean, I guess there were multiple, but winners of E3O, that's awesome.

neodaoist: - Yeah, totally. And you know, the idea basically was to showcase local Brazilian artists to a global audience of collectors in a way, you know? And I think, you know, kind of the idea with Gogo, myself, some of the folks here, some of the folks in SliceDao with us, we really wanted to come up with a way to have like, you know, to showcase what like, for instance, Slice Protocol can do in terms of like community ownership in a way that could make a really compelling experience, both for like artists and fans, collectors, et cetera. So, you know, basically the high notes is we put out a call for works, got over 170 submissions, some really amazing art, yourself, Nicholas, Django, and a few other folks helped curate it down to 16. And I see Leonidas on the call today. He was one of the amazing artists in the exhibit. So yeah, then we kind of, you know, there's kind of two parts to our project. One is artist development, which we spent a couple of weeks on, and then it was product development, which was for the hackathon. So yeah, specifically for that, you know, we created a Mozilla Hubs gallery. So it's kind of this mixed reality experience where you can go in and it works on browsers and like desktop or mobile, but I'd say it's particularly compelling on VR headset 'cause you can go in, there's music playing, you can lift up the artwork and look at it. And we brought it to a couple of parties, which was a pretty big hit. The second mechanic that we came up with as part of the hackathon was this idea of like meltable. So basically we wanted a way for all the artists to collaborate and I'll pin up a tweet in a second here, but all 16 art we put into one NFT. And this is live on Foundation right now. The winner of this auction has the right to send it to another NFT contract, quote, melting it, which will send them back 16 one-of-ones for each of the artworks. And then, you know, if anyone holds all 16 of the one-of-ones, they can remelt it down into the single NFT by sending it back to that same contract. So it's something kind of experimental, the idea of like, hey, let's get a bunch of artists where we can share on one auction altogether. And then the primary sales and the secondary sales will go to a slicer, which is basically a way to share it. So the artists will get 70%. We worked with four Brazilian foundations and I'll let you share a little more about it, Gogo. It's really sweet, the onboarding that we did. 20% will go to these foundations and then 10% went to the other hackathon builders.

Nicholas: - Okay, wait, so just to walk through it quickly. So there's a Foundation auction. The person who buys that can melt the mosaic in order to get out sort of individual NFTs for every artwork. And then the royalties on that, on the trade of those NFTs is sent to Slice, which is like a splitting kind of protocol and 70% go to the artists and the rest is shared with the other builders at E3O of other projects.

neodaoist: - Totally, yeah, yeah, that's right.

Nicholas: - That's cool, that's cool.

neodaoist: - Yeah, yeah, and the way the mechanic works is we use the on ERC721 received callback to trigger the initial melt. So to do the melt, you just take that NFT and transfer it to the other mosaic contract, which will receive, as long as you do a safe transfer from or what have you, it will hit that callback and then it will send you back all 16, totally.

Nicholas: - Damn, okay. So what does it check for? It's checking that you're sending this particular NFT?

neodaoist: - Yeah, exactly. We had to launch the Foundation auction and, well, check that, we had to mint the NFT on Foundation so that we could get the NFT contract and the token ID. So it's gonna check both those things. to say, is this the right NFT that I received?

Nicholas: - Pretty cool, pretty cool.

neodaoist: - Yeah, totally. I gotta shout out Jacopo from Slice because he helped think through the mechanic and the idea of how it can work in both directions too, which the three of us, him, Gogo, and I were kind of riffing on Discord. and it's like the next evolution of melt maybe. Check that, it's the next evolution of burn. Is this burnable? Well, it's meltable, it's even better.

Nicholas: - So the difference is that when you melt, you get something, you don't just strictly destroy, you still, you get something else.

neodaoist: - Yeah, there you go, it's regenerative burning.

Nicholas: - Get on that Kevin Iwaki podcast.

neodaoist: - It's refi.

Zeugh: Yeah, hey you all. - Awesome.

Nicholas: Hey, Gogo, how's it going?

Zeugh: - Pretty good, pretty good. Rainy day in Rio, finally, 'cause it's been sunny every day since Zug was here with Dango and you.

Nicholas: - Sounds terrible.

Zeugh: - No, yeah, it's terrible right now because the first time that I could actually have time to get to the beach or do something, but it's raining. All right, but anyways. So about the meltable aspect of it, one of the things that we were talking, what we were thinking about as well is that Mosaic can have multiple collections. and why is that? Why did we do that in Brazil and why did we use Ethereum stage to help us out getting more people looking, paying attention to it? Brazil has not a good history in NFTs. We don't have many artists yet. We actually are building pretty fast as all the Web3 community are, but most of the people here doesn't even know what is crypto and much worse like NFTs. So we did the onboarding of these 16 artists. Only four of them knew what was NFTs and had wallets. The other 12 didn't have wallets and we helped them set up. We helped them figure out what are NFTs, what is the potential, like how it's gonna work with Slice because they all got Slices already in their wallets, for example, and as soon as we sell the actual Mosaic, they will get the royalties directly in their wallets. So trying to help them understand this mechanism as well and Slice is not a pretty easy protocol to explain, but actually it is. It's just you can find ways to explain pretty fast.

Nicholas: - That's crazy, onboarding directly to Slice.

Zeugh: - Yeah, we were onboard directly. It's much easier if you have something on your hand, on your wallet to explain someone and how it works than having the idea flow in the air. So it was pretty cool. They all got, they all understood how it works and that this is actually how they will receive and that's their ownership over the collection.

Nicholas: - That's pretty cool to have a passive income asset as your first activity on chain.

Zeugh: - It is, right? It is. And they can always even sell these Slices if they think they are gonna be worth more than they are now or just getting to understand, sell a bit, I don't know, just trade off.

Nicholas: - Do they have to pay to claim for their own Slice? I forget how Slice works.

Zeugh: - No, yeah, this time we did for them because it's to onboard people and to help grow the community and grow the environment, the Brazilian environment. And it's not environment there, but yeah, you got it. But we did it for them. So we sent, we paid this time. We wanted to make it claimable for at least for the builders. but we felt that the builders in Rio, they were like, as Zoot said, a bit raw in Web3. They are trying to better understand. A lot of them read that they didn't have MetaMask yet. So we figured out like, let's send people and not make the Slices claimable. I think that was the best move to do there. And also for the foundations, the foundations, we have four foundations and we try to reach a lot of different effects in Brazil. So we have like a refauna, which is to reintroduce fauna in the forest in the middle of Rio. I don't know if you guys know, but in the middle of Rio, we have a huge forest. I think it's a human forest that we call when it's totally surrounded by city. And I think it's the biggest in one of the world. And it was completely destroyed and completely reforest. And now they are reintroducing animals there. So we help them out, helping a school, a project that helps introduce robotics and development to kids in poor conditions in Brazil. Yeah, the foundations were amazing. This all work was pretty cool. This was really good to get in touch with so many people and to share, to show them how in the VR glasses at the event, their collection, to show the artists their work in a huge wall in the metaverse. It was amazing as well to see their reactions. Yeah, it was pretty, pretty cool.

Sean McCaffery: Hey, thanks so much. I have to hop off now, but thanks so much for having me on, Nicolas. This has been so dope. It's been great talking to y'all. Thanks for the invite.

Nicholas: Yeah, you're welcome. Thanks so much for coming through. Super stoked on Jokedow. It's like extremely exciting governance experiments. I love to see it.

Sean McCaffery: Thanks, thanks.

Zeugh: Sean, I just put up a contest called joke is no joke at all. So we can post good use cases and then vote on that. I'm making a tweet and everyone that replies, I'm going to air drop the tokens. So if you guys want to play with making a contest of good ideas for contests.

Sean McCaffery: Oh, hell yeah.

Zeugh: That's amazing. Just reply there. I'm finishing the tweet here. Should be live in a few minutes and then just send the polygon addresses there and I'll drop the tokens so everyone can vote.

Sean McCaffery: Oh, hell yeah. I will definitely do that. I'll keep an eye out. That's such a great idea. Cool. I'm excited to see how that turns out.

Zeugh: Yeah, let's see if it turns out to be something, but it sounds fun. Using it to learn how to play with it.

Sean McCaffery: Yeah. All right. I'll talk to you later. Thanks again. See you, Sean. It's been great.

Zeugh: Bye. See you, Sean.

Sean McCaffery: Let's fucking joke.

Nicholas: So Gogo, you were saying about the, what it was like for the artists to, I mean, so I guess for context for people, these are mostly visual artists, some working digitally, but many working with physical materials, but they were drawn, I guess, to this opportunity. Did you talk to them a little bit? What was it that made them apply?

Zeugh: Yeah. So the process was like, we had two weeks to get the artists to be able to present them in, at the end of the hackathon. So it was a fast run. So I had to use my main account in Instagram. So I start to look for artists all over Brazil and send them like actual one message, one by one, and inviting them, explaining what were NFTs, how this could be like a, to some people, a life changing experience, to others, you know, like just a new experience. So it was just talking to them and explaining what was the project and what we were thinking of. Yeah. I talked to you before I start that project. And one thing that sticked in my mind was that you said like, and how about like the continuity of the project? And then I think we got a solution when we created the DAO and we aim to do other mosaic collections around the globe, around countries that don't have, that there are similar stories to Brazil, that the most of the artists doesn't even know what our NFT is yet. And so the actual, the DAO that we are, that we built is mosaic because Mosaic of Brazil later was the first one, but we can do it wherever we think, like we can really help the community of artists and onboard people, yeah.

Nicholas: - 'Cause you did projects that maybe fall into the same like pattern before with Tile DAO. So there is like some kind of artist engagement onboarding to crypto work that you've been doing a couple of times now.

Zeugh: - Yeah, totally. With Tile DAO, we are actually gonna do like the first, the second step of it in two weeks. And, but the first thing was we painted a huge wall, a mural, we did a mural in Salgueiro, which is a community in Rio. And it's so satisfying to see like they honored 11 people from the community that did something for the culture of that community. And it is in a wall, like seven meters high, huge wall. I went there and it's impressing, like it's crazy. And the families that have never had any credibility or any, you know, like didn't see them in any anywhere else rather than in the community, they are looking at their parents in a huge wall full of people that are actually amazing musicians. They are all musicians. And yeah, it was so, so amazing because I saw the real impact right in front of my eyes there. And I will keep doing it. I just realized that I'd love to do it.

Nicholas: - It's great. 'Cause we talked a little bit and it's, I don't know that you realized that's what you were gonna end up doing, but it's like, seems to be something you're great at, actually, and something that is needed.

Zeugh: - Yeah, I think it's, I wouldn't say that I'm great at. I can get better. But it is totally something that is really needed. And yeah, it's a really good role to play I think.

neodaoist: - Yeah, we were riffing with a few of the folks from the Ethereum Foundation. Well, I'd seen them out in Denver too, but down in Rio. And this idea of kind of, whether it's a hackathon, like competing in it or not, but just going where there's like energy and interest and curiosity around Web3, NFTs, DAOs, DeFi, and just helping. It's kind of like a hook, or we would say in English, like something to hang your hat on, right? Like for somebody who's a creator that doesn't know about all these technical terms that we throw around, having something where it's understandable. Oh, okay, you created an exhibit, you put out a call for works. That's a very artistically native thing. Whether in music, it's like call for scores or call for, it's almost like an RFP in the enterprise SaaS world. But you put out something like that, and then there's gonna be a curation process and an exhibit, an auction, and then it shares the funds back. That's something that can help to onboard creators in a really tangible way. Like, oh, I see this much, and I get this share of 70%, and I think it's a really great concrete use case that's valuable. Oh, it's a new way to connect with fans, and I hesitate to say monetize my work, but have another way to fund and sustainably create more work. And just the looks on people's faces when they're seeing their art in virtual reality is super cool.

Nicholas: - Yeah, what do they think of virtual reality? Do they like it or not?

neodaoist: - (laughs) I don't wanna, at the risk of overstating it, I would say it was a giant hit. I don't know.

Nicholas: - Okay, awesome, awesome.

neodaoist: - Yeah, totally. We brought it to the Lemon and MakerDAO party, and like, what do you think, Gogo? Or, Zug, you were there too. Maybe like 100 people tried it on. - You know, we had disinfectant wipes.

Zeugh: - It was crazy.

neodaoist: - It was pretty wild, yeah.

Zeugh: - I think better than me explaining that is Zug. Zug, tell them your beliefs. - Yeah, I was in that party, and I went to almost every single party in IfReal, 'cause my thing was about connecting to people. And that day, every single person on that party wanted to try those glasses on, wanted to know what was it about. At some point, the living room where that was happening was kind of crowded with people, either using the glasses or watching other people using the glasses and having fun out of that too. But the amazing thing for me was the other day. The day after, I mean, the party was fucking insane. It was a very good party. And the other day, all the people would talk about was the gallery. Like, we'd go to the bars, and people were talking about the virtual reality gallery with an NFT collection and how that was cool. So you guys managed to make some big noise about how metaverses and NFTs and digital ownership go a little bit beyond what most of the people in this space on the party, on the event, were aware. I think it was the first experience of immersion, of actually interacting with digital-owned assets somehow for most people in there. So it was very cool to watch and see not only it's happening, but the ripple effect on the next few days. As people talked about that and talked about metaverses or NFTs or how it's not only PFPs and that kind of stuff, like, it had a very good ripple effect and was a very nice moment too. And the other day at the bar, Neal was there, and some guy wanted to try the glasses in the bar 'cause he was at a party, but he couldn't use it or something like it. And they were like, "Oh, do you have the glasses here?". I don't know if in the end, Neal, you had the glasses there. I don't remember if the guy used it at the bar or if he didn't. Yeah. (laughs) So yeah, it did ripple nice across the next few days in a very good way.

neodaoist: - Yeah, the kind of immersive, it really is a picture worth a thousand words, whatever, a video or experience worth a million words, however you say it, but it's pretty cool. And to get technical for a moment, I'm friends with someone who's doing some pretty heavy-duty Mozilla Hubs customization, and there's some cool things I've been looking, it's like some JavaScript files, but you have certain callbacks and different things. Imagine if you could actually mint from the room or we could token gate different rooms inside the space. And I know other metaverses that are more like Web3 native already have that, but I think that could really amp up the experience in some different ways too. You could think like, there's some cool directions we can take it. Maybe it's a future hackathon project if anybody's interested.

Nicholas: - Damn, well, it sounds like a super successful E3O, different vibe than maybe you expected, Zug, but there's like an appetite for art on blockchain, even amongst this new community. That's pretty sick.

neodaoist: - Would probably be, oh, sorry, go ahead.

Zeugh: - Go on, go on, go on, you.

neodaoist: - And we would be remiss if we didn't kind of layer on the last like meta part of the hackathon project, which was like actually launching the DAO when we were down there. And so Django, you helped like inspire us and work through it. But we launched a juice box treasury to basically pool together to place a bid. And so we're aiming to raise five. We're at about like 4.5 or 4.56 right now. So the idea is it kind of, it was pretty funny at the hackathon. People are like, well, wait, what are you building? We're like, well, you know, we launched the DAO, we did this. They're like, wait, you did all that stuff in this time period? So it was kind of like this like art imitates life, life imitates art, where we, you know, the auction was actually like live on mainnet, whereas, you know, 99% of projects were super cool, but they were on Rinkeby or like a testnet. So I kind of want to do more of that, like blurring the lines between the hackathon and actually like, you know, launching a DAO and raising funds on mainnet. I thought that was pretty cool too.

Nicholas: - That is crazy how much you did. I'm amazed by all the different, I mean, the tech stack is stacked and all the interaction with people off-chain too. It's impressive.

Zeugh: - Manuel, thanks so much. - I believe that the event itself, Nikos just put the vibes versus the expectations. I think the event evolved pretty well during the couple of weeks I've been in Rio. The first, the three days of the main event and open day were pretty interesting and like starting to pick up speed. But as people connected and started like explaining some parts of how all this crazy spaceship we're in works, more people started like doing lots of research while they were there. And I think it was like feasible to perceive how it all kind of evolved in a few days 'cause it just put a lot of people together and some people knew about a certain area. Some people knew about something else and this knowledge exchange like put everything a little bit further. I think the event was successful in that sense. And the last few days were way more into nice ideas and talking about projects than the first few ones that were way more focused on like asking questions, answering questions, what does the AO mean? And that kind of stuff turned out to a week later be something like, oh, I'm thinking of starting a DAO to do this, this, this. How you think this could run? So it was still a very much explorative ambience for conversations. Like people were very interested in learning how and why and what. But the subjects of the questions by itself like evolved with time in a very nice way to follow up.

Nicholas: - I'm sad I missed it. Next time. Is it every year?

Zeugh: - I have no idea.

neodaoist: - Yeah, I think this was the inaugural one. So yeah, hopefully it was Connor and Solange from Chainlink. She was actually one of the sponsor Chainlink judges that I met in Denver. So yeah, I think that's the plan.

Nicholas: - Cool, where's the next conference? I'm already planning for NFT NYC. I know there's like, Portugal is now Lisbon or something.

Zeugh: - Yeah, I'll be in Lisbon. It's September, but June or July, there's one in Paris too. - Yeah. - I might be around.

Nicholas: - Oh, there's Amsterdam also.

neodaoist: - That's the one, yeah. That's the one, I don't know. They're trying to get me to go to East Amsterdam. I don't know if I've got travel in me in the next few weeks.

Nicholas: - That's it, it takes its toll on me. I don't know. Django's able to work and travel 100% of the time somehow.

Jango: - Kinda. It's like always spotty WiFi here, bad share there, desk a little bit too short somewhere else. I don't know, it's tricky.

Nicholas: - I'm impressed by all your time management, all of you. I find I'm working all the time. I don't even know when I would have time to travel. I'm just constantly, this week I was learning, for the first time, I discovered some tokens that I wanted to get rid of. And so I, for the first time, used Matcha limit orders and also this like pretty advanced, I mean, most people complain about losing money on Uni v3, but there's like a way you can set it up so that you, like, let's say you wanna go entirely from one token into another, you set up a very small range, just on whichever side of the price is like, just above the current price, let's say, into the token you want. And then if the price goes up and you remember to close the position out before it comes back down into range, then you'll have like LP'd only one of the two tokens. And as long as you're out of range and the price is above the range that you set, then you can close out the position and use Uni v3 like a limit order machine, which is, I don't know, I'm not such a DeFi mind, so that's something I learned this week.

neodaoist: - Today I learned.

Nicholas: - Yeah, exactly, today I learned, yeah. It's pretty interesting. Actually, one cool thing is that if you're ever trying to sell tokens like this, maybe you guys all know this already, but the Matcha limit orders are pretty cool. You just set like what price you wanna sell something at and how much, and then someone else pays the gas to buy it from you, which is pretty cool. You don't pay any gas at all. That was a, and they're much easier to do than those Uni things I was describing.

neodaoist: - And it works on a bunch of chains too, or a number of chains, huh?

Nicholas: - Yeah, I was surprised that they don't, I don't actually know what the right DEX is on Arbitrum. I was surprised to see they weren't there. Or well, UniSwap is there, but Matcha isn't. But yeah, Matcha works on a bunch of different chains. And it's pretty cool. The only thing I don't like about it is that it doesn't show you how much price impact your trade will have. So you don't know how to size how much you wanna swap in one go. 'Cause it just doesn't show you that. I was also playing with Cowswap this week, which is kind of interesting.

neodaoist: - I saw that architecture, it was crazy.

Nicholas: - The Cowswap thing? - For how they do it.

neodaoist: Yeah, totally.

Nicholas: - Yeah, from what I understand, it's like everything is Flashbots, but they also have like an off-chain order book where they do matching between orders before going to Flashbots. I think that's how it works.

neodaoist: - Yeah, roughly as I understood it, which is just super unique.

Nicholas: - It's pretty cool. Although I saw someone else complaining that it's like that Cowswap only exists because people don't know how to send transactions directly to Flashbots or something, because they don't know Flashbots exists, which I don't, I'm not sure. I understand why they think. I don't know. Also, do you know if the order books for 0x, for instance, is that public information or is it a private matching that Cowswap and 0x, I guess, both are doing? - I'm not sure.

neodaoist: I'm trying to find, I read a breakdown of it on some newsletter. I'm trying to find which one it was.

Nicholas: - It's a pretty cool system, Cowswap has, but in my experience, and maybe this is just 'cause I don't trade like oodles of stable coins at a time or anything like that, but I find Matcha always has the better price as compared to Cowswap. Even with, you can get like a discount if you hold the COW tokens, which they airdropped last week. But even with that, the price is better on Matcha.

neodaoist: - Honestly, it would make a great tutorial what you described on how you did that on Matcha.

Nicholas: - Yeah, actually, I should do that 'cause I really didn't know how to do either of those things last week, embarrassingly.

neodaoist: - That was my old roommate's thing where he had a pretty popular WordPress blog, and

Zeugh: the deal

neodaoist: was whenever he would have to do something, he would just write a quick tutorial of how he did it, and then you never know which ones are gonna get posts, but 10 years later, he had one of the best tutorial sites for WordPress, kind of a cool way to do it.

Nicholas: - That is cool.

neodaoist: - What did I do this week? Oh yeah, so for this foundation auction, we have to place our bid from the Gnosis Multisig for the DAO, but the foundation doesn't have the right manifest or what have you, so you have to send a custom transaction, so I'm kinda making sure I can do that, but that would make a good bite-sized tutorial. How to place a bid on Foundation, OpenSea, or other NFT marketplaces via Gnosis Safe.

Nicholas: - Yeah, definitely, that'd be great. There's a lot of great tutorials out there, but I feel Google is not so competent anymore,

Zeugh: or

Nicholas: maybe just a lot of the resources are on sites that don't have as good SEO as posts from Stack Exchange 2017, so you need to know who the best content producers are to find some of these things. Luckily, Steve Klebanoff gave me an article describing that Uni thing, which is pretty interesting. I don't know, I don't fully understand Uni v. 3, like setting the range for LPing, but this helped me to find one way to use it that worked. I think in the past, I had done things sort of experimentally with just setting a very wide range for LPing, and that's not a good idea.

neodaoist: (laughs) - No, not when there's other LPs that are tightly managing their range.

Nicholas: - Yeah, definitely, I was super impressed ages ago when Fractional first came out, and one of the first ones was Justin Aversano, Twin Flames, Anonymous, Anonymous, whatever, owned and self-fractionalized with Fractional and then LPed the Uni v. 3 for the token. And yeah, I think it's a good thing to understand how to do that. I was impressed at the time to both create the pool and then have a strategy about how to sell when you're the only token holder at the start. It's interesting. I still don't really know how to do that.

neodaoist: - Yeah, and if you can do it well, you don't want to write a tutorial on that, right?

Nicholas: - Maybe, I don't know, maybe it's secret weapons. I don't know. I guess if it's the ownership of the assets, maybe you can't, ultimately that person had a 100 ETH OpenSea shared storefront photo that they could fractionalize, and not everyone does, so.

Zeugh: - Totally.

neodaoist: That's another thing with tutorials on the subject. is they go out of date so quickly, right? Whether it's the UX changes, the meta game changes, or just a new version of the protocol comes out. I did some tests in November and December where I'd Google things like how to do XYZ on Sushi or how to do this on Solana, and eight of the 10 Google results were completely irrelevant or even harmful to somebody that didn't know what they were doing.

Nicholas: - Yeah, I think of, I haven't watched a ton of his videos, but DeFiDad does videos in this vein.

neodaoist: - Okay, I don't know them.

Nicholas: - He works, I think he's the Zapper content person now, but for a long time he's been doing YouTube videos on how to do many different tasks, especially in DeFi.

neodaoist: - Great brand name, too. Nice three-syllable ABA format.

Nicholas: - Wait, did the rest of you learn anything interesting this week in crypto land?

Zeugh: - I've been playing and having lots of fun with the problem of how to automate governance. I think it's been a very fun challenge with lots of small sides to it, both social and tech, and it's been a fun one.

Nicholas: - Any problems and solutions you found or directions of note this week?

Zeugh: - Right now, I'm not sure if we have many answers. We're in a very experimental state yet. The idea is to make a governance that's plug and play so anyone can use it based on creating modules for each type of governance, like if you want a proposal discussion phase or temperature checks, or if you want to use Governor Breville, or if you want to use JokeDAO, or if you want to use Aragon or Snapshot, like make it in a way where you can just activate modules

Sean McCaffery: and

Zeugh: make one place for managing together all of your governance steps. And what I've learned is that there are lots, lots of different types of governance, and most of them are very similar. We just don't really have the standards beyond like Snapshot. I think that's like the standards in a sense like the generally adopted one. Notion is also pretty big, and that's kind of a problem 'cause their API is kind of very bad. Right now, probably the biggest advances we're making is integrating everything else into the Notion API, like being able to take the data we want and change data in there. But I think one thing I've learned is that it's probably better to do it somewhere else than in Notion. If you want to integrate things well, to make them like run smoothly. We're now considering Charmverse for this, talking to their team. Charmverse is a Web3 Notion that should come out soon out of alpha. And that's a front that's been interesting to work. Way easier to integrate when the devs are available to build the API with you. And the other possibility is that actually having a database of proposals already integrated to that service. That's the other way we're thinking of going, like having an actual proposal generator that we made some time ago where you can like write proposals and execute them. Export them in Markdown, just to post straight into Notion, but without having to add it there, like writing a better interface, a place that feels better to think about governance than Notion. 'Cause the experience of making proposals in Notion is not great in my opinion. It feels like you're writing a wiki instead of like actually proposing something. And maybe if we're considering now that instead of taking things, writing the proposal generator and then exporting Markdown and putting in Notion, just keeping our own database of proposals that would make it way easier to add it. But at the same time, we don't want it to centralize data. It's like, okay, our data right now is centralized in Notion but if we're gonna move it out of Notion, maybe find a way to have decentralized databases. So I've been looking into some, actually Jiggly has been looking into some and I've been like getting his feedback on some of those. It looks like it's not a very advanced state yet, but there are some options already. That's pretty cool.

Nicholas: - That is cool. It would be nice if they use some kind of standard format rather than forcing you to migrate the data awkwardly between them. Even if they just like all use Markdown for the pages, but I guess you want some like databases and stuff that are not possible in Markdown.

Zeugh: - Yeah, I'm not very sure on the details on the tech side of this. Right now we're working in three different fronts. The project one is integrations, other is like configs and flexibility. So anyone can like put up their own governance in their own terms. And the other one is like the proposal database and generator itself, like all the content and how it interacts. I'm more of like coordinating between the three of them. So the dates of each one is not something I know much about right now.

neodaoist: - One thing I think about governance and learning myself, but across some of the places where more on-chain governance stuff is happening, like out at East Denver, there were a bunch of polka dot talks where some of that was happening. But just the idea of like standard fields or whether it's Markdown or a DSL or something else, or like a proper data structure, but just what are the things that need to be put on a proposal for a payout or for a protocol change? Almost like the whole agile community like coalesced around user stories, as an XYZ, I want to ABC so that DEF. And then there's kind of like standard fields now that you expect to see if you look at a user story as a developer. It would be awesome to see how those quasi-standards kind of develop for DAO proposals over time.

Nicholas: - Yeah, absolutely. I know there was like a standardization effort in Juicebox to make something of a standard proposal format and then maybe other DAOs could use that, right, Suk?

Zeugh: - I'm sorry, I totally lost you for a second, Niklas.

Nicholas: - No, it's okay. Like just standardization across proposals and maybe even so that other DAOs can start up faster.

Zeugh: - Yeah, our idea right now is not to standardize their models, but to give flexibility so they can use the same platform in their own ways. Having a standard basic proposal, like the business, like the standard minimum version of what a proposal should be for you to use, but then also given the option for everyone to, each DAO or each group to get in there and change it and make it any way they want. 'Cause I'm not sure if a standard type of proposal can fit all the different sizes and models of DAOs right now.

Nicholas: - Yeah, for sure.

Zeugh: - Is this in context of what you were saying? 'Cause I just got half of it, man, sorry.

Nicholas: - No worries. Were you gonna say something earlier, Gogo? Oh, by the way, if anyone wants to come say hey, feel free. In the audience.

Zeugh: - No, I'm good. Just wanted to share with you guys, we are almost at the end of our treasury there in our daily treasury. So if you wanted the project to keep rolling and to impact more artists, go put some in.

Nicholas: - Just how do we get there?

neodaoist: - I'll post one on.

Zeugh: I'll tweet something. - Thanks. - Yeah, it's juicebox.money. You can go to projects and search for Mosaic, M-O-S-A-I-C, and you'll find a project.

Nicholas: - Cool, I think the-- - Actually, and we could-- Oh, sorry, go ahead. - No, no, I was just gonna say, I think the Discord channel is locked where the official links channel. But yeah, I found it on juicebox, cool.

neodaoist: - Nice. And my friend here is a product designer. Maybe we can do a little live interview, Colin, if that's okay with you, Nicholas. He set up his MetaMask. He connected to his first dApp, and his very first on-chain dApp interaction was contributing to a juicebox project. - Damn. - How do you feel, Colin? Are you glowing in the afterglow?

Zeugh: - I am absolutely elated right now to be a part of this.

Nicholas: - Congrats, Colin.

neodaoist: - He says congrats.

Zeugh: - Welcome to web three.

neodaoist: - Welcome to web three. See, onboarding, look, everybody smiles. It's amazing. We gotta do more onboarding. Let's onboard the next billion builders and creators to web three.

Nicholas: - It all starts with this foundation auction.

neodaoist: - Totally.

Nicholas: - Oh, Ken, how's it going? How's it going, Kenny?

Zeugh: - Yeah, you're in good company. My first minting was a tile.

Nicholas: Yes. - I forgot about that.

Zeugh: - I unwittingly used juicebox for my first mint, which I think goes back to where we started, which is, we gotta make it simple. Like, I would not have found my way into this community if it wasn't for wanting to mint that NFT and then being like, what the fuck is this tile token? And that's what led me into it. So, you know, that's, I'm maybe more curious than most, but I think the bad idea of like, bundling the tokens together is still like a super powerful thing that I wanna go deeper on. - My first mint was a tile too. - Very nice.

Nicholas: - Mine too.

Zeugh: - Tile is changing lives.

neodaoist: - I was, if this counts too, my parents visited me and I was like, "Hey mom, I'm gonna mint an NFT.". And she watched me mint a tile. So it wasn't my first minting, but she was like, "Oh, that's pretty sweet.". And then we were like, "We're gonna design and stuff.".

Zeugh: - So it was your mom's first NFT?

Jango: Is that what you're saying?

neodaoist: - Well, she rode shotgun with me on it. We'll get her her own one pretty soon.

Zeugh: (laughing) - Awesome. - Oh, I guess.

Nicholas: - I know my, I think mine was like a test NFT I minted on OpenSea. I don't know if I, I'm trying to think what my actual first mainnet mint was. Maybe, I think, I don't think it was a blint app. I'm not sure.

Zeugh: - If only this data was available somewhere and we could check it, imagine how beautiful if like that information was available and distributed across millions of computers worldwide. That would be sick.

Nicholas: - Good idea. I can't, but I don't even know which wallet I was using first. Okay, my first NFT supposedly, my first 721. Oh, it was a foundation. I think something I minted actually. 419 days ago. Not so long.

Zeugh: - My parents' first NFT was a loot for punks. My dad's first NFT, loot for punks. And he did flip it for two times. It made like two X on that. Very good first mint, I'd say.

Nicholas: - A piece of history, in a way. I think I just tried to sell one of those.

Zeugh: - Good luck.

Nicholas: - Cleaning out my wallet.

Zeugh: - I think you're gonna spend more gas than it's gonna get paid for.

Nicholas: - That's the calculus, yeah. Is it more gas to approve it or not? Yeah.

Zeugh: - Half of my wallet right now is sitting on that state of like, okay, this is not worth selling anymore 'cause it's more expensive to sell right now than to just keep it. So I have a very big hidden area on my open seat, like three digits of hidden NFTs, sadly.

Nicholas: - I'm checking. Maybe I have an older wallet here. Let's see on this hypothetical immutable ledger you were describing. Nope. BlipMap I minted, I think, 278 days ago, something like that.

Zeugh: - I'm wrong. Actually, my ENS was the first NFT that I minted.

Nicholas: - Oh, that's a good call, too. I often see people announcing, like, I bought my first NFT and they already have an ENS. They don't realize it was their first.

Zeugh: - No, I just realized that MV gave me my tile and my first NFT that I minted was Founder's Map because I also got my meet cup from my brother. My brother mints it. And yeah. - Crazy.

Nicholas: - Has anybody sold a juice box?

Zeugh: - A token? - Not yet. I'm very anxious for that moment. - Right, right. Not right, not tokens. Like, actual, the project as an NFT itself, as a transfer.

Nicholas: - We should, we should.

neodaoist: - I did transfer one. So when we created one, and then we transferred ownership of the NFT to the Gnosis save.

Zeugh: - That's cool. - Yeah, that's something that I believe that has happened sometimes already, like juice box, canoe, constitution, tile. I think there are some that have gone through this path. But to actually sell a token project key, 'cause that's what the juice box NFT is, right? It's the key to the project. That sounds like a crazy idea. I mean, how much would you price juice box DAO right now? I'll remind you, not only it has 6,700 ETH in treasury, it is also ID number one. So it gets an extra rarity there. So what? - I think we should put a bundle of like, you know, shark DAO and juice box DAO up on OpenSea for like, I don't know, maybe a lot. - That's a good idea. - But actually-- - 20K, 20K, 20K. - I think doing shark DAO to sort of establish the market for it, like, would be an interesting thing. 'Cause it's like--.

Nicholas: - Hmm. It depends who buys it, right?

Zeugh: - This is like third level metal. - What would you wanna do with it?

Nicholas: - But like, the price maybe depends on who's willing to, not just obviously who's willing to buy it, but you know, if like, I don't know, nouns or fingerprints or flamingo, or I don't know, if someone interesting bought it, then it's potentially worth more. But if someone kind of shitty buys it, then maybe you just tank the project.

Zeugh: - I don't know. Like merge it with PropHouse or something like that, I think.

Nicholas: - I don't know, PropHouse, what's that?

Zeugh: - PropHouse? PropHouse is a small grant system that nouns started to, they're basically doing three ETH grants for creative ideas. - Because they're sitting on this treasury, and it's kind of like, how do they--.

Nicholas: - Yeah, they're having trouble getting rid of that treasury.

Zeugh: - It's just a bit, that is the challenge, right? It's like, you got the money, but spending it smart is actually harder than collecting it.

Nicholas: - Yeah, but it's good to see that they've found some way, I guess, like a lower governance delegation of assets to mess around.

Zeugh: - I mean, it's the first week, so we'll see. Although there are some amazing things starting to come out of the noun proposal process. Someone made a beautiful pair of luxury glasses that like, there's some stuff happening. It's still early.

Nicholas: - Yeah, it's still early, yeah. All right, well, we've been talking for over two hours, so this has been pretty great. I don't know if people are feeling like calling it. We can say goodbye. Hope you've enjoyed chatting today. I really wasn't prepared for all that. - Wasn't prepared for that Jokedow conversation. That was mind-bending, basically.

neodaoist: - Yeah, with a name like Jokedow, you expect like, you don't know, you didn't expect to get to that level of like depth and sophistication necessarily.

Nicholas: - I mean, transient token governance events as parties or something? I don't know, it's an interesting direction to move governance where it's not just like making boring governance fun, but instead it's just making fun governance.

Zeugh: - Having, well, I think one of the ways to drive value in Juicebox is to have tools that help people use their tokens in ways that are fun for the community. It's like, I think it's absolutely visionary what he's doing and like connecting it to what's happening in Juicebox seems huge.

Nicholas: - Yeah, absolutely. We should do some Canoodow, Jokedow votes.

Zeugh: - Oh, I'm already running my first contest here. Let's do one thing at a time.

neodaoist: Yeah, I gotta get in on this.

Zeugh: - One thing at a time. Peace. - Yeah, I think this is gonna be very interesting to see how it unfolds. Hope we can actually get some participation with like some nice use cases in this. How did I call it? A joke is no joke at all. I think it's gonna be a fun one. Joke is no joke at all. Sean just replied me in a post here with a Telegram group chat to talk about ideas and possibilities of use cases before we post it. Gonna be having some nice chats there. I think governance as a whole has been like coming up and up for a good time now, but like last couple of weeks, all I hear everywhere is governance. Like, it's not even about talking through this algorithm, like every single other place too. So super excited to see how this unfolds. And Nicholas, thank you very much for hosting this space. Listening a bit more about joke. that was very good 'cause I saw them in a space this morning too that I took part and I was like totally fucking sure it was April's fool joke. Like, I was totally sure this was not real. It took me like about 15 minutes until like I got the hang that they were actually serious about it and it was not just like bullshitting around. And I had already like talked a bit, made some jokes and then I understood, okay, you're actually talking about something real here. So getting to understand a little bit better here was very good. Thank you for the invite, friend.

Nicholas: - You're welcome. Yeah, I find these shows are most successful when it's people who would get along but don't quite know each other yet. So I think you and Sean is a great starter mix up for this conversation. Happy to have Kenny, Django, Neo Daoist, Gogo, everybody come through. Thank you all so much.

neodaoist: - Thanks so much.

Sean McCaffery: - Thanks.

Nicholas: - All right, see you next week.

Zeugh: - Thanks. - Cheers. - That was great.

Nicholas: - Hey, thanks for listening to this episode of Web3 Galaxy Brain. To keep up with everything Web3, follow me on Twitter @Nicholas with four leading ends. You can find links to the topics discussed on today's episode in the show notes. Podcast feed links are available at web3galaxybrain.com. Web3 Galaxy Brain airs live most Friday afternoons at 5 p.m. Eastern time, 2200 UTC on Twitter Spaces. I look forward to seeing you there.

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