Web3 Galaxy Brain 🌌🧠

Nicholas: Welcome to Web3 Galaxy Brain. My name is Nicholas. Each week, I sit down with some of the brightest people building Web3 to talk about what they're working on right now. My guest today is Jango, co-founder of Juicebox Protocol, RevNets, and DeFifa. Launched in 2021, Juicebox is a programmable fundraising protocol that's processed more than $180 million of contributions to over 1,000 projects, from culture DAOs to open-source projects. Most recently, Juicebox Protocol facilitated over 300 ETH in donations to the Legal Defense Fund for Tornado Cash developers Alexey Pertsev and Roman Storm. Juicebox's core mechanic issues receipt tokens for each contribution to a given project, which can be redeemed at a later date for a portion of the remaining treasury. Issue and schedules can be defined on-chain up front, making possible trustless token launches and clear on-chain relationships between project founders and contributors. On today's episode, Jango joins me to discuss a bunch of new projects that have emerged from the Juicebox ecosystem. Bananapus, Juicebox's much-anticipated cross-chain evolution, will enable contributing funds to a project on any L2, while maintaining Juicebox's trustless receipt token mechanics. RevNets, a fully automated form of Juicebox project, will replace DAO governance with predefined and immutable token issuance rules, simplifying project diligence and ongoing maintenance for project creators and contributors alike. Finally, Bannyverse, a new NFT project, will bring Juicebox's beloved Banny the Banana mascot on-chain with a project. In addition, Bannyverse has a plETHora of customizable accessories with unique wearables for each L2 chain. It was fantastic catching up with Jango about all the exciting projects he's been working on over the past year. I hope you enjoy the show. This episode of Web3 Galaxy Brain is sponsored by Zapper. Zapper is a smart block explorer that allows you to view the chain in a simple and human-readable way. Track your NFT and DeFi portfolio, search any ETHereum address, discover new opportunities, and trade, all from one place. Try Zapper on the web at zapper.xml. Or download the Zapper mobile app from the Apple App Store and Google Play. See you on-chain. My thanks to Zapper for supporting Web3 Galaxy Brain. As always, this show is provided as entertainment and does not constitute legal, financial, or tax advice or any form of endorsement or suggestion. Crypto has risks, and you alone are responsible for doing your research and making your own decisions. Jango, welcome back to Web3 Galaxy Brain.

Jango: Hey, Nicholas. Good to chat again. It's been a few months.

Nicholas: Yeah.

Jango: A few too many.

Nicholas: A few too many, frankly, but I'm happy to have you back. We're going to talk about all kinds of interesting things today in what started as the Juicebox universe, but has now become somETHing even bigger. There's so many different things going on. I know Bannyverse is about to drop or sometime in the future. Can you explain to people what Bannyverse is about?

Jango: Yeah, sure. Yeah. The Juicebox ecosystem has somewhat... It's two things now, right? It's the key goal now with the main production protocol that is powering a lot of fundraisers. And there's a lot of activity going on now. And then there's a bunch of experiments that are more future-focused. And that's where I spend a lot of my time. And Bannyverse is a manifestation of an art experiment that we've been playing with for a few years now. It's an NFT collection that we initially had prototyped a few years back, as a part of this governance module. but the focus had to shift back into a lot of risk mitigation and protocol stuff. And so, um, that art collection kind of got shelved for a while. Um, and now after, uh, a long time getting, uh, the protocol to where it needs to be now looking towards the future, um, we're going to use the Bannyverse collection to really showcase a lot of the tools that we've been building. Um, so hopefully a relatable, um, um, NFT collection that really, um, makes the more complicated mechanics and cross chain interactions accessible to folks. Um, and yeah, it's, it's a great group of folks, a set of brilliant artists. It's an animated series. Um, it's a big experiment, frankly, so we'll see how it plays. We're going to learn a lot in so doing. Um, but it's, it always makes me smile whenever I look at the characters or hear them talk or work with the folks involved. So. It's fun to produce.

Nicholas: That's awesome. So Bannyverse for people who haven't seen it is, uh, Banny, the Juicebox mascot, uh, sort of interpreted as a bunch of different, uh, remixable traits. Uh, it's kind of like, um, what is it? Life's like a box of chocolates. It's like, he shows up everywhere. He's in every scene or they are in every scene. And this is kind of the character set where you can get the, the Banny that's just suits your aesthetic interest, somETHing like that. Right? Yeah.

Jango: So the, the original collection, was a just like an immense artistic explosion of outfits and characters and references to pop culture in the present and the past. Um, and the current reincarnation of it is slightly different, but it pulls from the same set of ideas, the same aesthetic. Um, the way it's going to be deployed is you'll have four naked bannies to choose from. Uh, so the, the primary, uh, forever collection are these four naked bannies. There's an alien Banny. There's a pink Banny and orange banding and original Banny, which is the yellow Banny. And, um, there's, you know, few alien bannies, a few more pink bannies, a few more orange bannies, and then an unlimited supply of original bannies, which so you can make those forever. They're meant to be very accessible. And then over time, we're going to do outfit drops that are, um, essentially curated, uh, stories of like, uh, you know, maybe once a month or once every so often we'll allude to again, pop culture in the present or in the past, um, and give folks 10 to 20 outfits to choose from. And then folks can outfit their Banny and wear it around. Um, and each in this whole process will be available on mainnet on optimism, on any L2. So, uh, the cool thing about the collection from a programmatic perspective is that it's not just on one chain and the revenue from all the chains go actually into the same, uh, like financial energy train that's kind of moving in one direction and can't be stopped. And I think we'll get into that a little later, but on the surface, it lives as in, and, uh, as, as these four naked bannies and outfit drops.

Nicholas: Uh, which chains did you mention there?

Jango: It's so, so, uh, it's likely going to be mainnet as the main chain, right? And then we have, uh, we'll start with optimism and arbitrum, um, and it can be any number of chains thereafter. So, uh, we'll start offering it on a few chains, um, but we can expand to future to other chains in the future and it'll plug right into the system. Um, and again, the same four naked bannies will be offered on each and then we can do outfit drops, um, you uniquely to each chain thereafter if we want.

Nicholas: Um, and very cool. So it's like a vending machine on each chain, but then the revenues accumulate to mainnet.

Jango: Yeah. And the vending machine metaphor is what we're going to keep coming back to here. Cause I think that's the most, more interesting way to describe what happens when you put a dollar bill into the machine and you get an item out. Um, but then what happened to that dollar bill? And that's a question that maybe not everyone who interacts with Baniverse is going to ask, but those who do will find that there's some interesting things happening in that net vending machine. Um, and the coolest part is we have, uh, some, some great people doing the artworks. So Mios, who you know very well is the Pharrell of Baniverse, if you will. He's the outfit curator. Um, and he finds like the most interesting and pop cultural references. And then he works with Sage to actually get those mocked up and, uh, in, in, in files to then upload into Baniverse. Um, to the, the collection. Um, and they're all going to kind of live in the same NFT collection, all the naked bannies and all the outfits, uh, into the future. And, um, and Perry's working on the minting experience and he's just like, yeah, it's, it's insane to like describe his perspectives on small details, uh, through, through it all. Um, and then an animator, Lurkmoth, who you and I met for the first time, we were in Marfa a few years back, um, at, uh, as he was doing multimedia show, he's, uh, around now and he's, uh, doing an animated series to kind of develop the characters and the plots across these various worlds that Bani will find himself in crazy. So the animations you said animations, and that's kind of meant to not necessarily just be web three oriented. Um, but just play to the fact that Bani is a relatable character that's can can captivate. And it's a, it's an experiment. We'll see what the, what plays, where, um, but the, the point of Baniverse, is to have a NFT angle to this, um, but also have broader appeal like past crypto. that can hopefully get folks in as, as they develop curiosity or, or want to be involved further.

Nicholas: Now, if people want to buy one of these Bani's on L2s, they're paying in ETH or somETHing else.

Jango: They'll be paying in ETH. Yeah. Um, ETH or in a future L2, um, we'll probably stick to the native currency of each chain. Um, but again, that can change depending on, uh, if there's a new chain that we roll out later, or if someone rolls out a new chain that we, that we want to do, um, extend Baniverse to, and we'll also be able to do the pricing, uh, on that chain slightly differently, but on mainnets on ETH and optimism to ETH.

Nicholas: So for people who have messed around with Juicebox in the past, um, is that Juicebox that's running on L2s or is it somETHing else?

Jango: It's an evolution of Juicebox. Yeah. So here we're about to get into like the long story. So we'll try to break it up and find, uh, a narrative that takes you, I think from where, uh, you are, it's been a few months since you've been kind of intimate, intimately involved. You, you played a big role in helping the Juicebox culture, uh, evolve through kind of a more, I would say versioning risk mitigation chapter, uh, while also playing some really, uh, uh, interesting experiments on the surface. Um, so we, we started playing with this idea called, called banana puss. So imagine a banana with tentacles, um, as a hypothetical, like how might Juicebox play, uh, in a multi-chain world? Um, the original complexity of doing so of just like deploying Juicebox on optimism on arbitrum as they were warming up, uh, as well as the, the, uh, flagship mainnet deployed was that the way Juicebox works is it's, it's a protocol that's deployed, but the first project on, uh, the protocol is Juicebox DAO. that issues JPX, um, as ETH comes in to any Juicebox project, including, uh, Juicebox DAO, um, it issues the project's token outward, according to the current issuance rate. So, um, if we were to just deploy the protocol on various chains, uh, then you would have multiple different versions of GBX and they wouldn't all talk to each other. So you would, you would have a, uh, a, um, an ecosystem that, didn't really quite know how to evaluate where it's at energetically. Um, you might have, uh, you know, as, as a builder, you might have to make difficult choices as to like where to spend your time as an investor. You have to make difficult choices as to where to spend your energy. Um, and as a consumer, then you'd have the, the, the optimum experiment. You'd still have a decent experience because you could just use it wherever, but down the downstream, uh, consumer experience for Juicebox is realizing that all along you've been accruing these tokens from paying fees. Um, so your fees don't just all go to a multi-sig or a person behind the scenes. Uh, they actually go to the community of projects that came before you and builders that helped push the ecosystem to where it's at. And so, um, instead of, um, of pleasing the, uh, the consumer upfront and saying, great, let's just put it everywhere just to get traffic. Um, the, the research angle of, uh, which, you know, anyone could have done that, but my personal curiosity was to, to try to solve this. how do you get a treasury backed token to live cross chain? So you can accept revenues anywhere. Um, but it all goes back into supporting one tokens value, canonical token. Yeah. Yeah. The canonical token. Um, and since JBX, uh, what is, you know, an experiment that's thriving, the thinking was, we don't want to add more risk to JBX. This is a very experimental stuff. So it's not think about this in terms of a JBX versioning experiment. Let's decouple this. Um, let's do this Bananapus, uh, experiment, which folks now call it Juicebox V4. Um, so that's kind of the canonical, uh, name that's, that's taken, uh, shape just because people are focusing on it now and it is developing some, some legitimacy despite not being deployed yet. Um, but it doesn't interact or it doesn't interfere with V with V3 per se. Um, V4 will have a main project, right? The project one, um, on all these chains will be Nana. Um, JBX as a governance body will own a large subset of the initial Nana supply. So JBX is economically tied to Nana. And so far as it owns Nana tokens that it can do whatever it wants to with, uh, in its governance. Um, and, um, yeah, so Nana is kind of, is kind of this cross chain Juicebox, uh, system that's a fork of Juicebox V3 with this multi-chain capacity and a few more interesting, um, details that make some of the initial functions and, uh, I guess, perspective functions, uh, work in a pretty exciting way.

Nicholas: So in the future projects on Juicebox won't upgrade to Nana. Instead they would create a new project because it's, it's kind of a separate ecosystem, but they're financially connected by JBX, DAO holding Nana tokens.

Jango: Yeah. It's up to like Juicebox.money. The website will probably, it should stay pointing to Juicebox V3 for a while. I think Juicebox V4 or Nana, and I'll kind of use those interchangeably. Um, that'll have to earn Juicebox.money's trust, right? I think like it's an experiment. It's going to be risky at times. Um, if it fails, that's, that's all good. Um, we could try again. It doesn't really kind of have this, um, this, um, but yeah, like if you're trying to run a, like a, a, uh, like a cryo DAO or like the tornado cash fundraiser now should probably do that on V3, um, like the tried and true protocol. Um, but project, but sites like Juicebox.money will have the choice eventually to support maybe both at the same time. So folks can choose, uh, which to deploy on. But for most people, they won't, won't really care. And clients will handle that, um, handle that for them. Um, we also have a few websites, uh, that will handle V4 specifically, um, but those aren't going to be open-ended Juicebox.money style interactions with the Juicebox protocol in that context. Um, they'll be very laser focused on a very particular style of Juicebox project, uh, that we're calling revnets, um, which are unowned, uh, vending machines, uh, that have rules, uh, for what happens when you put money into it, buy somETHing, um, and under what conditions you can retrieve money out of it, um, that are determined, upfront on deploy and that can't be changed by a project owner or multi-sig or governance process later.

Nicholas: So these are like truly, so just for listeners who may be, it's a lot, uh, the revnets are kind of, um, I used to think of this as like hardened Juiceboxes. Like they're, they're set on deploy. Is that the idea? Basically there's no admin.

Jango: Right. Exactly. Yeah. So do you, uh, like the Juicebox, um, like each Juicebox project plays itself out and what's called funding cycles and V3 terms. Now we're calling them rule sets. So it's going to get confusing because there's these words that we have been, uh, adapting to our current time and, you know, learning from the past. Uh, I'll try to make it clear in this conversation, like what correlates to what, um, but in Juicebox, current land and Juicebox, V3 land project owners can schedule new funding cycles, which are rule changes. Um, that, you know, over time as their project changes or their needs change, um, a rev net as a hardened Juicebox is a sequence of rule sets, funding cycles that are scheduled upfront. Um, and those will just happen automatically over time. So you can upfront say, cool, we're going to deploy this project after which we can't change this. The first, let's say 28 days, um, is they're going to have these rules. Let's say issuance of 1 million Banny tokens in the case of a Bannyverse project per year. Uh, um, paid in, you know, by, by way of an NFT purchase or somETHing. Um, and then let's say after the 28 days, the second rule set will take place automatically and maybe the issuance gets cut or somETHing. And then during each rule set, you can have all the Juicebox you can imagine doing like a meme coin.

Nicholas: this way, for example, where you have really fair issuance that's declared upfront and, uh, all of the ETH is collected into, is it, is it still collected into a treasury? or where, how does ETH, where does the ETH go? When I buy a token, let's say someone were to do a meme coin with a revnet.

Jango: It's all the payment terminal infrastructure of your, your, your, your, your normal Juicebox stuff. So, um, you decide. basically you decide, um, we have payment terminals for you to use that can handle any token. So if you're free to pay in whatever, and they'll be stored in the Juicebox payment terminal contracts and you can access it from there.

Nicholas: So basically, uh, I could sell a meme coin in, uh, you know, I could, I could launch a revnet, uh, of a meme coin. I just think it's an accessible example for people because it removes a lot of the mechanisms, uh, and say, you know, it's going to be Niko coin and you, when you pay into it, uh, you get a certain amount of Niko, depending on when you purchase, uh, as, uh, you know, decelerating, you know, less and less Niko issued over time. And the ETH or USDC or whatever it is token that I choose stays in the treasury. And I guess that classic Juicebox redemption mechanic is, is possible. So you could say, if you want to get out, uh, like constitution DAO, some people might remember, basically you can always get a refund for a certain amount. Uh, and especially in a revnet, it can be specified upfront how much that amount will be over time as well.

Jango: Right? Exactly.

Nicholas: So revnets are kind of, um, maybe, uh, one particular angle on what Juicebox V3 was able to do, but really like tightened to just like make it automatic, make it a, uh, automated money machine.

Jango: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And the project one on this Juicebox before protocol Nana is going to run as a revnet. So unlike JBX, uh, which is project one on Juicebox V3, it has a governance body. So as funds come in, governance can decide to issue payouts from that those funds or whatever. Nana does not have governance. Nana is a money machine. That's just going to run. Um, it has clear upfront rules on under what conditions new Nana can be issued and it has clear upfront rules under, uh, according to which Nana can be redeemed to access revenue from it.

Nicholas: Makes sense. So, uh, basically, and I, I think, you know, we, we were talking about this a lot back in the day also, but I think everyone is kind of trying to find ways to minimize governance and to just make, I mean, as soon as you introduce governance, it's sometimes necessary, but if you can avoid it, you save yourself a lot of time and energy and confusion and uncertainty. If you could just lock it into an immutable contract and you know what you have to have to expect.

Jango: Yeah. Governance is great, but like when you're thinking about deploying many smaller scoped app experiments, you don't want to manage a long tail of small treasuries with governance. Um, it's much better if you have a cleaner system in place. Most people that, that cleaner system is just like, let's just take money. Let's just collect revenue into our pockets and, or let's not take money at all. Let's make it free. Let's like not even think about money or revenue. It kind of ignored that part of reality. Um, so the exercise here was to try to find that middle ground of like. no revenue is important, but we have to make it work very well for builders, investors and retail alike. Um, and just so happens we have a lot of these tools from Juicebox, these levers that we can move around at will, that if we fix a few in place, um, we actually get some pretty cool theoretic results. So now the question is how will it play live? And we're doing Bannyverse as the first experiment to actually put this in motion. Um, and hide a lot of these complexities behind, uh, fun Banny characters, not in a, in a, in a similar way to how originally tiles, the first project on Juicebox, uh, hit a lot of the Juicebox mechanics underneath it by way of an art collection. Um, and as folks interact with the art, a few folks every now and then that one out of every 10 had a curiosity as to like, Oh, what are these tile tokens? And then ended up in, uh, the, the, the underlying community and then helped, then, you know, create the future that it became.

Nicholas: So, uh, but revenue answer more than just these kind of meme coin generators, vending machines. Uh, there's like some ideas in here that are, uh, close to your philosophy. Retailism comes to mind. Um, can you explain a little bit, what is retailism and, and what the bigger idea about, um, revenue is?

Jango: Yeah. So how will I explain retailism? Yeah. So I guess first, there's a nice little blog post I wrote that's nice and short that will probably do a better job than I'll do here in wordy conversation. I tend to be kind of wordy when I start talking. Um, but retailism is a, an idea that, um, when, when you think about capitalist systems or socialist systems, or like this constant dichotomy between the two that tends to be very present in folks' minds. Um, I, I feel like it, it's a question of like, where does, where does the debt lie? Like in, in a capitalist system, um, you're always kind of passing the bag along, um, and amplifying narratives, uh, you know, up and down, up and down. Um, so that someone buys your bag. Um, and usually retail ends up with the bag, um, and it kind of manifests, uh, you know, in your, you know, shopping retail by like at a point of sale, but, um, in like an investing retail context, it happens oftentimes in these internet spaces where folks are creating narratives and amplifying them. Um, and there, and, and so you have, uh, you know, the opportunity for things to moon. Um, but then you have the opportunity for things to totally crash rug. Um, and it's all a function of belief and, uh, and there's a lot going on behind the scenes oftentimes, um, that, that, uh, makes the surface a lot more manipulatable, uh, than it first appears. Um, and, um, the opposite end of the spectrum, like nonprofitism or donationism kind of alludes this idea of, of incentives altogETHer. Um, so what, what retailism tries to do is bring retail in to the in group, um, alongside builders and investors. And it does so, um, by treating entrance into an economic game, uh, in, in these, uh, time bounded phases. So, you know, if you, uh, let's say from now until next week, uh, if you contribute somETHing into this treasury, um, here are the rules. It's the same for everybody. Like no one has special privileges or permissions. Um, but the trade-off is there's, there's no scarcity there. Right. Right. It's just like I contribute, let's say one ETH and I get, let's say one of the retinence tokens out. Um, if I buy right, right after you, we get the same rate because we were part of the same, let's say generation of users of investors, of, of, of consumers. If we were to put NFTs in front of this, you know, let's the revenue from buying NFTs go into that rev net during the same generation. So we're treated the same. Um, and then once that time period passes, then, um, the rules can change. And oftentimes in retailism, the rules change by. the price of entry gets a little bit more expensive. Um, so it respects the risks taken by those who came before, um, but also, uh, allows folks to still get in at, um, and be the previous generation of a yet for future generation. So you have this kind of step function, uh, that ends up being a price ceiling, right? Um, because it is the maximum price that anyone's willing to buy, uh, to get into a network. Um, if the, if, if there emerges a, a market, um, of the token, um, kind of on an AMM or somETHing, the token price would never go above the price ceiling. Cause otherwise I would just go back to the rev net and buy from it to create new tokens. And so you still have this, this debt where those who come later are paying the same amount by getting less, um, which gives value to those who came before. Um, but it's, it makes sense because those who came before have taken some on some risk, have taken on some, uh, and, and, and deserve some opportunity upside for doing that or some reason to actually be looking for those risks to take on. Um, at the same time there's downside, uh, uh, protection because the only way to get your revenue out of, of the rev net is by turning in your tokens, right? So, uh, let's say for the sake of example, on week one, uh, you put in one ETH and get one token from the rev net. And then on week two, I put in one ETH and get one half of a token. Uh, now the rev net has two ETH in it and you have, uh, two thirds of the token supply. Um, so if you were to redeem the, your tokens, you would get, you know, a, a, uh, I don't know if it's a larger share than what you put in, depends on the math depends on how many people are involved and whatever. Um, but as you exercise that immediacy, as you, as you exercise that, that, uh, that exit from the rev net, you're also going to pay a tax to everyone who stayed in. Um, so it's, uh, those who stay in longer, uh, also, uh, the network prefers folks who stay in longer than those who call top and leave, um, before everyone else does. So those two things, it's price ceiling and this price floor at which you can exit. Um, they both, uh, recognize the risks taken by, by retail investors and builders, uh, in the beginning and throughout a network's growth and also recognize, uh, those who stay longer. Um, so you're trying to balance these, these energies that you don't have, um, folks who come in, just amplify narratives, uh, to actually walk away with the bulk of the network's value.

Nicholas: Right. Because these tokens that just their price fluctuates, according to an AMM strictly, uh, do feel, uh, there's also like order books can feel a lot like a game of chicken where it's really just like who can call top for a speculative pump. Um, even for legitimate products, often this happens, uh, for their tokens. Uh, it's not just for things that have no bait, no substance, but one thing this makes me wonder is, well, two things. First of all, if the last token holder is to redeem is all of the ETH redeemed from the, from the rev net.

Jango: Yes. Okay. So the last token holder has access to the whole, the rest of the network, um, which again is a function of all of the redeems. It came before and the current network state, right? So how many tokens are out there, which is just, they're holding.

Nicholas: I'm presuming that, that, that, um, sales are still open in some like later, what did you call the frames of reference?

Jango: The, uh, generations you can call them or rule sets. Oh, sure. Yeah.

Nicholas: Yeah. So if you, you know, let's say, uh, you know, a hundred rule sets down the road, um, the original, uh, bag holders have all got, you know, are all ready to leave or have all left and there's only one left. Well, as long as the sales are still open and there's new people being minted as holders. So it's not just, uh, there's no initial, there's no total supply, uh, max total supply or there might be, but there's not necessarily.

Jango: So the, the, like once you've grabbed these, these parameters, the price ceiling parameter, the price floor parameter, there's one more that people get into later, which kind of gives the entrepreneur at the builder, uh, access to the game as it unfolds. But if we take that out of the, out of the picture, if we just look at the pricey on the price floor, um, those are two, those two, uh, like the rate of change of those two values are configurable on deploy. So if you want to make the generations shorter and more extreme, so, you know, have issuance taper off quicker, you can do so. And if you want to make the exit tax more aggressive to make it less worth it for someone to redeem before someone else, you can also do that. There's trade-offs obviously, and there's these tensions that you have to kind of strike. Um, um, but it's possible. Um, and then as an AMM emerges, obviously, then it fills the space between the price floor and the price ceilings that new purchases, if the best price is at an AMM and not at the price ceiling, uh, the, that order will kind of, uh, be routed to buy back from the AMM.

Nicholas: So the ceiling is the price I could buy it for today to issue a new token, right? And the floor is what I would get back if I, if I burned my token and redeemed it, right?

Jango: Exactly.

Nicholas: And then the AMM sort of fills the middle space with all the motivated, uh, token holders, uh, LPN AMMs, such that there is, uh, you know, they're, they're essentially market-making between the two prices that are auditors and takers, the makers and takers fill the, the, the middle.

Jango: So if you have a revenue that they deploy that has a very aggressive price ceiling increase rate, you're not going to have a lot of liquidity, right? Or, like you might not have a lot of liquidity. I guess it's a function of how many people participate on day one. Um, but, um, you, I guess part of the thesis also is that just doing an AMM is not the best way to launch a project. It's not the best way to do a day one, like a, like a, you know, your, your startup, uh, you're going to do a startup. Let's just mint the token, find an LP, uh, to pair the token with somETHing. SomETHing common, and then see the price kind of tick up and down there. Um, you're better off putting these, these, these guardrails, these price ceilings and price floors to actually create liquidity upfront, and then have those gradually give way to a grid, like a wider space for the AMM to, to, to take hold. Um, while also ensuring that it can't go to zero because it's backed by revenue. Um, so if you think about it in the, in like common, uh, you know, uh, like Silicon Valley, investor type terms where things trade at a multiple to earnings or somETHing, uh, the AMM can kind of fluctuate above the price floor, which is where the revenue is. Um, and so people can trade that all day, but to access the revenue, uh, if the price drops, then, you know, uh, the re the, the revenue will start to leave the system and go to holders who are burning tokens and that'll lock. each transaction of that will incur the exit tax, which will actually push the price floor up. So the price floor can only go up. And the price ceiling can only go up and then the AMM kind of sits between.

Nicholas: And so does it always resolve in sort of widening the gap between the floor and the ceiling, or are there programs you might give it rule set schedules? You might give it where that's not the case where the, the distance between the two is more constant. Yeah.

Jango: I mean, like you, the most boring game is a one rule set. That's forever at a price ceiling. That's just like one token, one rule. So in for one token out, um, in which, in the exit floor is just a reap, like a refund. Um, so those two are forever the same. And so it really starts there and then you can kind of tune it, uh, as you want to kind of open that up as aggressively or as, uh, gently as, as your network prefers. Like if you're thinking about designing like a, a 401k system for like, you know, a population of people, you probably want a very gradual system because. That's, that's meant to unfold over literally generations of people. So if I'm paying into that system today, um, it shouldn't be drastically different from what my parents paid into it 30 years ago. Um, but if you're running a meme coin, maybe you do want to just give folks access to it upfront. Um, and then get out of the way and let the medics do the work from there.

Nicholas: The other function that you want in a meme coin. And, um, this is. Definitely. Not financial advice, but, uh, being done expertly by Jacek, uh, with the DGN coin on Farcaster right now is sort of producing the, uh, unfolding of, you know, sort of the art of running a meme coin. You know, I think, I think when that one, the total supply was, uh, actually, no, I think there is an inflation schedule also for that 1% per year in four years or somETHing. But, um, in general, like there is a kind of total supply for now and some portion of it, the creator has access to. In order to give it to people. To make the meme happen more broadly. How might that happen in a revenue?

Jango: So, the other. So we've talked about the price ceiling, the price floor. The other. Aspects to a revenue is you specify an operator upfront, which is that addressed? You and you, me, it could be Jasper and, um, and operator split rate. Um, we're, we're also calling it a boost. So you're trying to find the right word here. Let's say in, in, in, in Juicebox terms, in. corresponds to the reserved rate. um let's say um we set that rate at at 10 percent right every new token issued from the revnet when you put funds in and then mint new tokens at the price ceiling or buy from amm. when you do that buyback that percent of tokens gets reserved for the operator. um so the operator will maintain part of the the supply growth as it grows. um and it's not scheduled up front right it's a function of how many people are interacting with the network today. um and also what is the issuance rate?

Nicholas: so it's revenue dependent.

Jango: it's revenue dependent. it's time dependent uh just like everyone else. so the builder supply is treated just like everyone else's. um so the builder ends up with these tokens. um in banny versus case banny tokens. and as those and and with those tokens it can do whatever it wants. right it could pay staff it can airdrop. um it can burn them it can return them to the network. um you know whatever it wants to do. and anytime someone wants to then access the underlying revenue it has to make the same choice. do i want to do it now and pay a tax or do i want to do it once the network grows a little bit more?

Nicholas: uh we sort of glossed over. you did mention it before but i didn't touch on it deeply the amm and the buyback module. but from a revnet's perspective um essentially if i go to purchase tokens or burn tokens in the revnet and i could get a better price on uniswap then the revnet contract will redirect the trade to uniswap right.

Jango: yeah so you can think about it. in the the bannyverse case you're going to go buy naked banny. um if someone's willing on the market to to uh give up their banny token uh to the bannyverse case you're going to go buy naked banny erc20 token for a certain price and that's a better price for you than what the the revnet's willing to issue new banny tokens for um it'll go and fulfill that trade and then give you the the total minus what the operator's percent is right. so the operator still gets their share in those amm buyback trades.

Nicholas: so it might be better for them to go straight to the amm. in that case or i guess it doesn't matter to the buyer.

Jango: it from the buyer's perspective you should go to the amm. if you're not if you're not interacting with somETHing else right like if you're interacting with nfts and you're you're buying the nft the revenue must go through the revnet to get to the amm. if you're just trying to speculate on the underlying token uh you're better off going to the network direct. uh rather you're better off going to the amm directly because you won't incur that that operator split right right.

Nicholas: but i guess for you as a buyer it doesn't matter. it just means as a buyer the only downside is that there's a little bit less going to back the tokens that you've now purchased. if you just going to the operator.

Jango: exactly yeah you will get fewer banny tokens per ETH if you go through the revnet. if you're just after the erc20 revnet token um because let's say like uh the amm is willing to give one banny per one ETH i can go directly and get one banny per one ETH. or if i go through the revnet i will get uh 0.95 bannies per that one ETH and the 0.5. so i'm going to get 0.5. so you know if you want to support the production effort how if you trust that um explicitly then you might want to go to the revnet. but if you're just trying to get the most banny for your buck um you should go through the amm. um but then obviously if you're if you're interacting via a revenue mechanism like nft sales that then you have no choice. you have to go through the.

Nicholas: actually i was wrong in what i said earlier. because you don't as a buyer you get more tokens back from the amm trade marginally more tokens back but you don't get more tokens back. you don't contribute any ETH to the or whatever the token you're trading against. it is to the treasury. instead that all goes to the other side of the amm or the nft. um what have you? but you said banny versus erc20 or it's yeah.

Jango: so so the each revnet has its token uh which is an erc20. so i guess in the vending machine metaphor let's let's say we have a vending machine um selling banny nfts the naked bannies and the outfits. right. yeah i go in i put dollar and i get the banny nft. with revnets i will also get a token. that's that's part of that that revnet which we're calling dollar sign banny right. so it is a little confusing. uh in speech but on paper it kind of looks like an erc20. um and the only way to access the underlying revenue of the the vending machine that dollar that i put in is to shove that dollar sign banny back into the machine and then get whatever the vending machine is willing to give me dollars probably if i do it right away just for like an immediate reback. uh immediate rebate. it's probably going to be uh you know pennies on the dollar but if i wait and the vending machine is quite popular that year maybe i'll get a little bit more.

Nicholas: so okay so you can imagine i walk up to a vending machine. it's got little banny characters in it. they're nfts and their clothes. i purchase one of them and the machine. i put in ETH into the machine. or you could configure other tokens if you wanted usdc somETHing. uh so i put my tokens in let's call it ETH and then out comes the banny. uh snickers bar uh that i ordered the the nft that i wanted the little keychain or however you want to think about it as well as some fungible tokens. and those fungible tokens are uh if i when i'm ready to put them back into the machine i get a portion of the whole treasury uh the whole cash box inside that vending machine.

Jango: right yeah you can do it right away for an immediate rebate if you want to think about it that way. you don't want to think about the fungible aspect. um or you know you'll just check in later and you'll see that that whatever. uh the cool thing is the value of it will never go down from that moment you bought the banny snickers bar. um like the the least possible value will be at the time that you purchased the snicker bar and then over time as more folks use the machine. uh in future generations future rule sets right. um the value of those bannies that you got in that transaction uh will just be worth a little bit more. uh because that debt from that debt metaphor earlier um future generations are contributing to your the risks that you took by buying earlier uh than later and the. the reason this kind of is poignant to me is i i feel like retail does a lot of work carrying networks forward. right they do a lot of work. you know investors are great they do a lot of work. but retail is like this growing segment of every network and that's what you want. you want larger networks um and you want people to be all somewhat all three right. you want to treat like everyone like they are part of your team um and word of mouth is the most uh kind of interesting. uh like cost per acquisition uh strategy. so you want your networks to be a part of your team and you want those tokens in every one who buys from your network to help propagate and storytell and uh and move the network forward.

Nicholas: and this and revnets really lets them. yeah as you say it's sort of blurring the relationship there's. no it's not such a strict uh consumer uh retailer relationship. instead you participate in the upside of propagating the meme by participating in it. uh you you're directly involved in a way that you want to be a part of the story aren't in typical kind of retail experiences.

Jango: yeah and if you want to configure your revnet to like especially honor those who came at the very beginning then you would deploy a revnet with the first rule set with you know particularly uh interesting incentives. um let's say a million banny per ETH coming in decreasing five percent every 24 hours. so every day you go from a million to nine hundred fifty uh thousand two you know over and over and over for however long that first rule set is then afterwards you can then go to a much lower issuance rate automatically and then do a very steady uh price ceiling increase from there. so then you can you know everyone still has the opportunity to get in but maybe you don't even have anything for sale. that was first 28 days or whatever that first rule set and then the more retail experience is that second phase where okay it's it's a little little bit less risk um but you still have very clear-cut rules so you can kind of configure as you wish. um but however you do configure it the rules are open to everybody. so it's still an open uh. sequence that that is is public uh and anyone can send a transaction on the blockchain to participate and it's potentially deployed across multiple l2s as well. yeah so the same rules. you deploy the same rule set. the reason revnets are really good for this cross-border transaction is because they're deterministic. so once you deploy the rules don't change. you don't have to synchronize rule changes. so you can deploy the same rules across any number of chains. then all you have are left with is writing the logic that we're calling suckers. that kind of suck payments um and token issuance down onto the main chain where your your revenue-backed token is um and then they can kind of live anywhere. right the same rules can be applied anywhere you can access anywhere. it's very like multicultural.

Nicholas: and where do the revnet tokens get issued? aside from the like? let's say the bannyverse. let's say bannyverse on optimism. do i also get banny? uh fungibles on optimism you will get.

Jango: um yes is the the simple answer? it's a different address a different token that you can then say like go and suck these tokens down to um so you you can interact with the optimism betting machine. you'll get up tokens and then you can then say like i actually want to um you won't be able to do the revnet kind of exit thing there. you have to suck it down to mainnet to play the mainnet game. um and i guess to take the the uh like the reality all the way to the end it's like that happens automatically right so you don't have to deal with those tokens at all. um you make a payment to the vending machine and the vending machine will automatically create this. this kind of tree of magnitude sucks down to mainnet. then anyone can go and suck it down and then be part of uh the actual network down there.

Nicholas: so redemption always happens on on mainnet like the treasury is practically on mainnet. yeah very interesting. wow um you know it's complicated but it's it's very clean design. also i understand the the motivation for all of it and the user experience you can imagine around it uh even kind of lends itself to across you know not cross-chain minting but mint where your ETH is mint where your your tvl is personally um and also handles the resolving where the best price is at the time of purchase. so you can imagine really just somETHing quite like a vending machine as a website and uh people being able to interact pretty simply with the website. but under the hood all this complicated stuff is going on.

Jango: yeah and you're going to have different if there are amms involved in the transactions like if there are amms filling between the price gain and the price floor you might have a different yield uh from the from the revenue you contribute. um but that's just part of the ecosystem at that point. um you know it's a permissionless space and so we'll we'll let the experiment play out and see what how those energies unfold. um and i'm really excited also about honoring the various cultures that are that emerge from these various chains too. um by way of you know bany outfit drops for instance you can have you can have different things for sale on one chain than you do on the other chain but they both have the same economic engine. um that powers them both. uh so you know maybe folks on arbitrum have a particular aesthetic. um that's different from folks on on base. for example it doesn't really make sense to share the same uh outfits everywhere in in that context.

Nicholas: yeah you can imagine also sort of some kind of competition dashboard. uh between them to see which community is the strongest or show your support. uh very cool. is that the full rundown on revnets or are there aspects of it that we haven't discussed yet?

Jango: i think that's a full rundown awesome.

Nicholas: that was very concise.

Jango: yeah like there's one there's one more parameter like if you if i'll i'll send you a pitch deck of a banyverse that has the end what you normally see as the terms sheet which is just how how the rev net is configured. um it's really simple like there's not a lot going on once you've grokked like the four or five different parameters and the one that we haven't touched on is a pre-mint. right when the network is deployed uh you can pre-mint a number of uh your network's tokens up front. uh let's say to uh on our pre-production of some sorts or to do pre-production incentives or however it drops. yeah but everything has the tensions right. so you can do a full fair launch type thing and there's no like everyone literally plays the same game. or If you do have reason to, you can also specify that pre-med up front. And that might be a great way for folks who are currently running their economies via traditional venture or via whatever else to also use a revnet and point new revenues to it. Because you've seen some other project that's working very well with it, or you want to experiment while also honoring where you currently are and where you've been. So hopefully it's also flexible enough to fold in to current experiments for folks who want to be a little bit more, you know, who want to put their capital formation on chain. As opposed to use tried and true savings. Safe agreements or SAFs or things that have been tried in kind of software for the past 20 years, but don't really leverage the tools that we're building and that make all this retailist energy possible. So I guess the last thing is that we've been working very closely with some researchers who are lawyers and are very interested in revnets from a legal perspective. From this unknown perspective, you know, you're deploying this vending machine that, you know, every vending machine has a key that you can go through. You can go and like turn the key and that's where you can access all the quarters. There's the key in the revnet. sense will just give you tokens of the revnet. So it's not the revenue itself. The revenue has to be accessed according to the same rules by everybody. So it's also very exciting from a legal perspective to interact with these things without the possibility of rug pulls, without the possibility of governance or some permission to risk.

Nicholas: Awesome. I forgot there's a sponsor today. I got to do the sponsor read. Speaking of making money. So the sponsor today, and I'm very grateful for them. They're a very cool company. And I know Seb, the founder personally, and he's a great person. They're very generous with his time and attention as well. Zapper is a smart block explorer that allows you to view the chain in a simple and human readable way. You can track your NFTs and DeFi portfolio. You can search any ETHereum address, discover new opportunities and trade all from one place. You can also download the mobile app from. The Apple App Store and the Google Play Store. So do check out Zapper. It's very cool. They're experimenting all the time and it's a very nice team building a good product. Great place to check out how your tokens are doing and discover what everyone else is doing on the chain too. They say, see you on chain. So my thanks to Zapper for sponsoring this episode.

Jango: I love Zapper. I'm glad they sponsored this. Yeah.

Nicholas: You ever use it? You tried it? Yeah.

Jango: Yeah, for sure.

Nicholas: Yeah. It's a solid place to look at all your wallets. I think it's the one I look at the most of any of those things. Um, so, uh, did we do the gamut on Nana? I feel like there might be more, uh, ideas related to Nana here. or is Nana just underlying infrastructure for RevNets really?

Jango: Nana is super boring, right? Well, I guess. All right. So Nana, the token is super boring. It's just project number one's token. So as fees come in, um, it, it issues Nana. So in Juicebox world, um, uh, project one accrues fees when money. So let's say there's a fundraiser going on and they, uh, the fundraise, fundraise, fundraise, and then distribute that out to a multi-sig to then use for whatever reason, 2.5% of that fundraise will go down to project number one, and that'll issue tokens back out to the fee payer. So, uh, that's kind of how the token starts to distribute. And then, um, yeah. And then also on, on, on, on redemptions, right? So if I have a token and I'm redeeming it, uh, for some, um, underlying funds from, from the project, um, in, in only in the case that it's not a one-to-one refund. So there's no fees on refunds, uh, that also incurred the 2.5% fee. So Nana is the Juicebox before that's in that, that has that fee engine. It runs as a rev net. So it's underlying money. IO situation with fees is rev net ish. Um,

Nicholas: so basically projects on L twos are going to be paying fees into, uh, uh, the L two sort of transaction engine that will ultimately suck the funds down to L one, where some, some percentage of fees will be assessed to, uh, let's just say every rev net project and we'll land in this Nana Bananapus project, uh, where the Nana tokens are then being issued. when those fees are paid, either when people jump in and just support, uh, Nana directly, or if they're paying fees on their projects on L twos, uh, through revnets, then they're going to be paying fees. And they're going to be earning Nana tokens and they'll be earning Nana tokens as a function of when, because it's, it is itself a rev net. Right.

Jango: Yeah. And same, same thing, uh, same way Juicebox currently works with the JBX token. Um, it's important to note that Nana is Juicebox before it's open-ended. So it's the same thing as Juicebox. It supports the same open-ended version of projects. So you can run fundraisers. You don't have to run revnets on Nana. You can run anything. Um, you could also schedule multiple funding cycles in. So the current Juicebox, you can schedule the subsequent funding cycle, uh, and, uh, on before. you can schedule, you know, 20 funding cycles upfront or however many, and they'll just all take on called pool sets and before. Um, so Nana as a protocol, but Anna puts Juicebox before as a protocol, um, is open-ended, uh, just like Juicebox, but the project number one runs as a rev net and all of the projects that we're currently working. So we're doing. Banny verse first, and then we have 10 or so, uh, projects from a bunch of folks in the ecosystem who are also excited about running their business as revnets. Um, who will, we'll all learn from how the Banny verse experiment goes, and then we'll start to deploy some of these other projects.

Nicholas: Awesome. It actually is quite simple, uh, in a way all this, uh, it's, I'm sure extremely complicated under the hood, but from a user perspective. Uh, it sounds like it could be pretty, pretty slick once all the, the front end pieces, uh, built.

Jango: if that's the case, I gotta do some shout outs because that's been a lot of work to get to this point. Um, big shout out to Philip, uh, who, you know, very well, uh, Philip is a machine. he's, uh, a bright and cherry fellow, um, who cares a lot about making things flow, uh, from a systems perspective, as well as from a documentation perspective. And he did a massive audit of. The whole Juicebox language, uh, that was used in interfaces and contracts, um, and has been doing the same for the, the banana plus cross chain, infra, the revenue and infra, uh, so big things to fill up for, for leading the way there. Um, and then there's a lot of folks who, who have also done a lot of work, um, by just, you know, the moment you start to build interfaces for these things, a lot of things become clearer. Um, so Aeolian big shout out for, uh, really pushing the rev net.com. Uh, app, uh, experience along, that's kind of like the Juicebox dot money equivalent for this V4 that only handles revnets. Um, so that's massive help. Um, K Mac is perpetually around asking questions, suggesting improvements, um, big shots to K Mac. Uh, obviously all the, the contract folks who, um, have been working on all of these components based has done a lot of this cross chain, uh, sucker infrastructure work. Um, so that's, sounds.

Nicholas: Sounds complicated.

Jango: It's complicated. It's been, you know, there's lots of components there. Um, there's also a few components that we'll, we'll, uh, introduce down the line that aren't deploy that we don't need them for deploy, but we'll, we could use them later for some cross community interactions. Um, so there's just been a lot of work of this past year and at times we get it right at times we push things along and it's not exactly what we need in the moment. So we reprioritize has taken patients and a lot of love from a lot of people. Um, Dr. Gorilla for, uh, you know, he inspired a lot of the AMM buyback logic and is now built, uh, this great swap terminal. So you can pay or take fees and any currency and it'll swap in real time for the, the currency, the revenue that accepts the Juicebox project accepts, and then, uh, more relatively newer, uh, uh, no wonder came in from a hackathon, uh, late last year. I think in the fall of last year, us fall, Northern hemisphere fall, um, and, um, has been writing a lot of tests and really, really, it's like so refreshing to have new eyes on, um, like pieces of infrastructure that have been looked at a lot. Um, and that's been a huge help and allowed a lot of folks to focus on more creative lever, uh, layers of research. Um, so things are feeling as good and safe as we can get them without, uh, going that. Extra. Step and doing audits, which we have on our purview, but, um, it's also, we're treating this deploy as an experiment. Um, and yeah, so big shouts to everyone here.

Nicholas: Yeah. I mean, congrats to everyone. It's a great team, uh, of truly decentralized distributed internet native team.

Jango: Um, like while I'm doing this, this can be like one more minute. Cause I got to shout out, like, like while this whole experiments side of it is going on, there's been a bunch of folks at peel. Uh, you know, uh, alien Perry Strath, uh, Tim race, who've been building like on Juicebox, V3, making that more consumer friendly, which is kind of the buzz in, in what three of these days. Um, so yeah, big shots. Everyone is just making like the current engine work while we can experiment with these future things. Uh, Matthew and Bradley for helping plug a lot of, uh, kind of the ecosystem in from a communications perspective. They've been doing a, like an incredible job, uh, probably missing folks, but yeah, it's a big, big, big community effort.

Nicholas: Yeah. And, and even people who aren't mentioned, I'm sure, uh, you're very appreciative of, uh, there's, there's great people in that community. Um, and people come in and come and leave and come back. And, uh, it's, it's a beautiful, I feel very crypto native organism, even though, uh, you know, in the sense that it's evolving, it's very interested in actually using smart. Contracts to do things that crypto is natively good at, uh, and that are problems in the real world, but are kind of sticky issues and hard to, you're really not going to figure it out without crypto. Only crypto can do these kinds of things. And, and I think playing out that experiment, uh, series of experiments is, has been very fruitful and very cool to watch. Is this revnet.app, uh, slash create? Is this, is this real? Is this, uh, is this real life?

Jango: It's, it's all on, uh, so we're on ETHereum, Sopolia and Optimism. Sopolia right now. Okay. Um, we have some production candidates going up this week. Things are, are every Sunday night. we have new deploys up. Um, so it's not real in the sense of, um, it's, it's not, uh, facilitating funding right now. Um, but it's real isn't? it's, it's actively being worked on. So every time you load it up, it might be a little different, a little better than the day before. There's also blog posts that are linked from it. Um, and there's some, some content at revnet.ETH.limit. mo as well. Um, so that's where you would go to, to poke around and learn more. And then there's a telegram chat and a discord for community workshops and calls and whatnot. So also in the, when the web three decentralized space, it's not very organized. It's everywhere. Uh, there's, there's a lot of different links. Um, but everyone gets to give their take and togETHer to be kind of make it better.

Nicholas: That's great. Uh, Sunday release schedule. Is that a. Uh, is that a cadence that's proving productive for you?

Jango: It's not, uh, it's not been adhered to, I don't know, like every, every week, but I try not to deploy stuff midweek or like when things are being worked on. Um, so I, I give, I give the contract efforts, uh, Sundays, uh, to wipe everything and, and redeploy and push, you know, any lingering, uh, not just the interface and interface changes way more frequently. I'm talking more, more like contracts.

Nicholas: Oh, no, I mean, the contract, the contract interface.

Jango: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Which luckily now the changes have been really small. There's still some, uh, the last bits that we're getting into place are the, the cross chain stuff. Um, so we might see, uh, you know, hopefully if any of us goes live into February, um, but we're only going to do when everyone's a hundred percent, this is, this is, this is great. Um, and it's, it's getting close.

Nicholas: That's awesome. So, um, that doesn't matter. Isn't that, that's not necessarily tightly, uh, linked to the revnet.app, but it is related to the, the deploy of the revnet of the Nana on the chains. Yeah.

Jango: So we'll put the Nana protocol up, revnet.app, and then Bamiiverse will be the first project. Um, and then there's going to be a lot of projects from there. Um, there's a, uh, yeah, I guess I'll leave that for a future conversation.

Nicholas: Yeah. I can only imagine. Uh, Um, were there any other topics that, uh, we were going to hit this episode that we haven't got to yet? I feel like we covered quite a few things.

Jango: I think we covered some good things. I guess, uh, while we're here is shout out the currently active campaign to help fund some tornado cash devs, uh, legal expenses as they're, they're, uh, yeah, dealing with some, some, uh, some pushback for, for writing open source code. Um, so that's a Juicebox project active on V3. Uh, that a lot of contributors Juicebox are working on, uh, helping build awareness for, uh, hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Nicholas: Okay.

Jango: I think like 700,000 or somETHing. The point is there's a few weeks left. Awesome. Um, so if you're into open source and all this stuff, that's all the, like we're building this stuff on shoulders of giants for sure. Um, people who took massive risks to allow us to take little fewer risks. Um, and, uh, we should still be taking risks. risks because there's a lot of work to do. uh. but um yeah it's it's cool to see the community come togETHer around these things.

Nicholas: yeah absolutely uh. so go check that out. that's on juicebox.money. it's probably the easiest way to find that.

Jango: and um there was another big project recently wasn't there raised over two yeah two two million for for science research on life preservation. uh via cryogenics. um some really earnest and thoughtful uh creators there who who are doing their best to run a really disciplined community and fund uh science experiments and research.

Nicholas: so hope to see more of those but they ran a hell of an experiment cool more in the d-sci kind of side of things which uh doesn't usually have such successful races at least to my knowledge. but i suppose there's projects out there.

Jango: yeah they ran a similar campaign to what moondow ran a few years ago who's still a great project that's running with the thick community. so um going strong. yeah hopefully this is the start of somETHing for for cryo.to.

Nicholas: that's cool. that's an interesting playbook that's uh being used multiple times now. that's interesting uh fascinating. uh all right. so banny first we have to look forward to no date exactly but coming soon to a chain near you.

Jango: banny.eath.limo is the site you want to keep up with awesome i will check it out.

Nicholas: and uh i know juicebox also has a new channel on farcaster uh that some people have been hanging out in. so uh if people want to hang out today i guess i mean i said juicebox. but i guess there's like several communities here we're talking about. where are the congregating points for each of these things?

Jango: the juicebox dow discord has historically been the point of uh like the nexus point although it is starting to peel off into these smaller pockets of communities though we still maintain. uh tuesday 5 p.m. eastern town halls. so that's a great point. uh a great place to come and listen in to the. the topic du jour of the week the topic do cement topic do week yeah and uh and yeah like you'll you'll find folks there. and um if you're interested in a specific niche you'll that's been going strong for a long time going strong for a long time and it makes like new things new channels like uh warpcaster and farcaster and whatnot uh very daunting. it's like oh man like we're so cozy here. it's so like familiar. we know how it works like like our whole governance is there like all you know it's it's. it's so cozy. it's like oh man. there's like a thousand places to be now and a thousand like. it's like messages to send and to amplify amplify and it's like oh it's it's. it's an interesting world and i really appreciate what they've built there. and i'm uh i'm i'm falling in love with it slowly but also uh can't help but be a little bit like like. is this the last one? or will there be another one like next week they'll have to fall in love with two you know information overload.

Nicholas: yeah yeah fair enough i think. one thing that's cool about that one. i mean i guess lens tried also. but it is interesting to have somETHing where sending messages is free it doesn't require signing or any kind of obtuse uh ux although i think you know you can imagine the lens app. solving that with an app or pwa but having a very lightweight posting experience but tied to uh ETHereum address is pretty interesting. i think that's awesome. it's going to be jet fuel for that network. i don't think it's going to stop. because to have engagement measurable engagement tied to an address measurable social engagement tied to an address we haven't really had yet except for maybe you could say reddit in that kind of way but not a serious way.

Jango: so i just i i just hope they will uh consider um moving their business model or capital formation structure onto somETHing like revenants to make it more publicly accessible one day.

Nicholas: hoping here's hoping. i'm not sure that's the. that's what that team's uh energy is like. but dbd um. but actually i do think like uh speaking of that dgen coin earlier i do think there's a huge opportunity for things like revenants to propagate on somETHing like farcaster because it's so easy to identify interactions like people are using now uh these frame interactions to like someone built a slot machine where you can press the button once every few hours and randomly you know some vercel uh serverless uh lambda figures that you know rolls the dice for you and decides if you win a chunk of change and then they ultimately do some kind of airdrop. it's like a mixture of web 2 tech and web 3 tech. but it's cool because you can sort of move at the speed of uh social engagement and then sort of sum all that engagement into some kind of on-chain action like a token transfer from a airdrop wallet somETHing like that.

Jango: yeah so it's it's super cool and i guess in the spirit of uh the og nicholas uh uh like written emojis that you dropped in the juicebox discord. uh let's try let's try.

Nicholas: that's it for people who don't know. i used to make reacts in the juicebox discord. uh and it was so much fun. uh that's it.

Jango: they're used all the time still.

Nicholas: oh that's great. oh that's heartwarming. um okay and if people want to check out revnets where do they go? i know there's a thursday meeting thursday 5 p.m eastern.

Jango: um if you go to revnet.ETH.limo all the links are in there. um yeah you can follow me. i'm posting more and more. there's a there's a telegram there's a discord uh yeah there's. there's all kinds of channels. uh fortunately and unfortunately um but yeah it's it's it's all individuals at the end of the day. so if you like if you'll find uh like in someone's angle on how they approach it you can always talk to them individually. and uh but the communities are all all on on these discords and telegrams as well.

Nicholas: amazing um. and bannyverse. uh i guess there's links from revnets maybe or where. how can people find bannyverse?

Jango: banny.ETH.limo is this. and yes we are working on farcaster distribution too um but we need help. so if i guess shout out to if anyone around is interested in helping on the visibility marketing front um and has uh you know relationships to people or communities and is interested in this kind of economic design world or cartoon design if it's banny specific do reach out to us. um that's that'd be a an immense contribution that we need.

Nicholas: amazing Jango this is a great conversation. thank you so much for sharing everything that's been going on in your universe.

Jango: hell yeah thank you awesome all right.

Nicholas: thanks everybody for listening. see you in the next episode. hey thanks for listening to this episode of web 3 galaxy brain to keep up with everything web 3. follow me on twitter at nicholas with four leading ends. you can find links to the topics discussed on today's episode in the show notes. podcast feed links are available at web3galaxybrain.com. web 3 galaxy brain airs live most friday afternoons at 5 p.m eastern time 2200 utc on twitter spaces. i look forward to seeing you there.