Web3 Galaxy Brain 🌌🧠

Nicholas: Welcome to Web3 Galaxy Brain. My name is Nicholas. Each week I sit down with some of the brightest people building Web3 to talk about what they're working on right now. My guest today is Itai Turban, co-founder and CEO of Dynamic. Dynamic is a Web3 login provider that offers embedded wallets, account management, and webhooks. In this episode, Itai and I talk about the present and future of wallets, authentication, multi-chain, passkeys, AA smart accounts, and more. It was nice getting to learn more about Itai's journey building Dynamic. I hope you enjoy the show. As always, this show is provided as entertainment and does not constitute legal, financial, or tax advice or any form of endorsement or suggestion. Crypto has risks and you alone are responsible for doing your research and making your own decisions. Hey Itai, welcome.

Itai Turbahn: How's it going?

Nicholas: Good, good, good.

Itai Turbahn: You know, my co-founder Yoni and I, so we're both Israeli and we've known each other, I want to say at this point since 2006 or 2007. So we've been friends been friends for over, I can't do math anymore, but 18 years at this point, 17 years at this point. And that's co-founder material, right? I feel like over 15 years counts. That's really where the transition happens. But, you know, in 2012, we probably, probably around 2011, 2012, we got really into crypto. We bought our first Bitcoin, I want to say in like 2012. I think at this point, we kind of figured we're pretty late. Classic. Yeah, exactly. Same thing happened with Ethereum around 2015, 2016, and with Solana as well. But, you know, we've been obsessed with everything crypto for many, many years. If you kind of go back and look at the conversations between Yoni and me, I would argue about 75% of them are kind of crypto related. And so when we started Dynamic or when we were thinking about, okay, how do, you know, we're going to build a company together, it was very, very clear to us that it's going to be in crypto. Like this concept of, and we'll talk about this, but this concept of shared rails or shared financial rails, shared identity rail, just blew our mind. And so we've been kind of, you know, obsessed with this space for a while. And at one point it was very clear to us that this is, this is what we're going to be doing.

Nicholas: Yeah. I guess that's the more interesting version of the question is, what is it about blockchain that excited you enough to take the leap into it? You said share financial rails, shared identity rails?

Itai Turbahn: Yeah. So if you think about it, so one of the, you know, one of the coolest things about the internet and there are lots of cool things about the internets is, this like is email, right? It's this concept that you can have.

Nicholas: Not the coolest anymore, I would say.

Itai Turbahn: Well I kind of, I, I go back, okay.

Nicholas: The world without email is less cool.

Itai Turbahn: You're right. I would draw, I would draw my powerful statement into a more, you know, more limited space. A cool part of the internet sphere is email. And that is because you can use Gmail, I can use Outlook, and it works. And this concept of a shared data exchange or information exchange protocol is awesome, right? It means that you have kind of shared rails in the middle, and then everything else can be private companies building around that. But that means that tomorrow, if I really want to, I can start a company that builds, and many have tried, right? From the more successful superhumans to others, yeah, to Hey, et cetera, to others that have been sold to, I think there was one that was sold to Dropbox, et cetera. This concept that I can build on top of these shared rails and have a successful business and compete on experience, on features, et cetera, but have it composable. It's this really, really, really cool concept. And that hasn't been extended to other parts of the internet, right? That hasn't been extended. I can't just leverage Venmo's protocols and build my own interface. Or I can't go to Twitter and say, look, I care about the social graph, but I want to filter things different. And I want to show different things to different people. Or I want to build a much more focused community on top of the... Kind of Twitter rails, right? And so this concept of email wasn't really extended beyond... And obviously, I'm like, you know, abstracting things away here. And there's like seven more levels of complexity around this stuff. But it didn't really expand to everything else. And that's partially because there weren't really shared rails and partially because it's really hard to solve the cold start problem. Like, how do you build, right? Everyone has an incentive to build their own shared rails and their own rails that are proprietary to them and not really share the value created. And in crypto, for the first time, this concept of kind of shared rails hasn't extended anywhere else. And crypto is this first time that lets you actually do this, right? You can actually, with financial incentives, and we see this, build a shared kind of money transfer network, right? This really... This is a really, really cool idea that I can build kind of a proprietary Venmo-like interface, but it can interact with your Zelle icon, right? This concept is really cool. That's right. It's email for money. It's email for identity, right? So Farcaster is doing the same thing with, hey, let us build the first client, Warpcast. But then everyone should be able to sit on top of this shared network and build their own stuff on top of it. So this... This is an extremely powerful concept of... And again, it can't exist anywhere outside crypto because you essentially tie financial benefits to maintaining a shared rail network. And so it's this phenomenal concept. And for us, it was mind-blowing.

Nicholas: It is mind-blowing. It is mind-blowing. It's funny how it's sort of... I mean, I pay people now and then, actually pretty frequently, honestly, in USDC for doing little contracts and things. And it's very convenient for me to do that relative to... Especially because often they're international people. To do it any other way would be... I mean, I'd have to pay a middleman. And somehow it feels a little... I guess often I end up doing it on Polygon, so I don't pay too much in transaction fees. But even paying transaction fees to a decentralized network feels better than paying it to some centralized middleman. So it does have some practical use. But it has... For most people, it somehow hasn't crossed the chasm for them. It's not really... Really only... It only seems like speculation is kind of the killer app so far. Do you agree? Or what do you think?

Itai Turbahn: I think historically that is overall true. I think you're right. I think it was very much kind of a gold rush kind of mentality for a while. I think that's changing pretty rapidly. And I kind of think most folks will not necessarily experience crypto in the kind of common, hey, I'm using CryptoSense. But just experience... Experience better things, right? So this is a concept of kind of... We pretty much fundamentally believe that in five years, everything becomes a wallet. So pretty much any app on your phone is going to have this kind of hidden wallet component to it, which is inherently just kind of an outlet to money transfer and information transfer across apps. And so...

Nicholas: Just embedded in other apps that are not selling themselves as crypto apps necessarily.

Itai Turbahn: That's exactly right. Right? If you think about it, PayPal has owned Venmo, if I recall correctly, for many, many years. And until probably like three months ago, you couldn't really transfer anything from your Venmo account to your PayPal account. It wasn't really integrated. And it is significantly more integrated now because you now have PayPal USDC, right? Or USD, I guess. And you can send it from your PayPal to your Venmo. Right? It's this concept that... It's this ability to kind of create multiplayer for things that are not information. And so that is... You're correct. I think historically, crypto has been a little bit more speculative. But I kind of think about it as, hey, we saw the money side of crypto. Crypto is an asset class. And now we're seeing the technology side of crypto. Crypto has these really cool rails that let you do a bunch of things you couldn't really do before at scale.

Nicholas: Yeah, it seems like we're on the cusp of it. But it has often felt like there was going to be mass adoption. And then, I don't know, it hasn't happened. I mean, I'm obviously a believer. But it does seem... So I guess Dynamics' core product then is kind of serving this need for making it possible for apps to emerge?

Itai Turbahn: Yeah. So obviously, look, first, to your point, I might be biased based on what we're building. But Dynamics' core offering is this... First, it's based on this fundamental belief that everything becomes a wallet. And that creates two kind of opportunities. It creates one opportunity on helping folks generate wallets. And that's where we play on embedded wallets. It's this opportunity of kind of how do I abstract away crypto from you and just let you enjoy the benefits of experiences you can build across brands or with NFTs or, again, like the decentralized FEMO use case or anything like that. And then the second thing that arises is, great, now that everyone has wallets, how do they interact with each other, right? And how do you log into websites with these wallets? And how do you, you know, if Robinhood becomes a wallet, how can it be your financial hub? And you can use Robinhood as your kind of authenticator for everything financial, right? And so the second part of Dynamics is really kind of supporting wallet logging and letting you interact. Or wallet authentication and letting you, a user that has an app that now has a wallet in it, kind of interact with everything else. So they're inherently two parts that we're building with Dynamics, but they all kind of center around the same concept of everything will fundamentally become a wallet in the future. And I think, by the way, to your point, like we might not see it happening, but I would argue that it's actually happening at an accelerating rate behind the scenes. And I'm willing to play. I don't know if anyone is going to take the other side of this, that within three to five years, you know, at least 50% of the apps on your phone are going to have this like concept of a wallet within them. Wow.

Nicholas: Old. Okay. I like it. When you say that every app will have a wallet in it, and especially I guess in the way that you think about the product you're building with Dynamic, is it the same wallet that I'm using between? if I log into, I don't know, maybe is it better to use a Web2 example or a Web3? For example, Frentech and Robinhood 2.0. Do they share a wallet if I use the same email address, for example, to sign in?

Itai Turbahn: Yeah, that's a. that's a really great question. It's the question of interoperability, right? Like the is is do you have many wallets or do you have one wall, right? And I kind of think about it a little bit like credit cards, right? Or or where you or identity where you don't necessarily have a single identity. You have identities, right? You have. The type of person you are when you talk to your friends, you have the type of person you are when you talk to your colleagues at work. You have your Twitter identity and your identity on Forecaster is a little bit different. And so in the same sense, it's not necessarily that you have a single wallet, but you potentially have a wallet associated with an identity within your set of identities, meaning you might have a Robinhood wallet, which is a shared wallet across all your financial related stuff. So if you go to. Kind of an RWA website and you click log in, you inherently the way to do it is you and you kind of authenticate with your Robin Hood wallet, right? Because you you associate that as your kind of financial hub. And then when you go out to play games, you might have an embedded wallet within Steam and every game you log into of Larry games or whatever, and you click log in, you'll log in with your Steam wall. Right. And so not. Necessarily. And to your point, like every social interaction might be that you log in with your Forecaster wallet, right? Or Warpcast wallet. So I don't necessarily think about it as, you know, every app has a wallet or one wallet to rule them all, but something in the middle that combines accounts based on an overarching kind of, you know, section over your identity that you control. So I would argue you probably have just like credit cards. You might have. Five or six. And you use your Costco card. And I might be revealing my age here based on my fan, how fan, how big of a fan am I of Costco and Home Depot, but you might use it at Costco and Home Depot. And then you might use your Chase card at, you know, for travel and you use it across multiple travel sites. So the same way you might have five or six wallets that let you handle kind of different different aspects of this.

Nicholas: And maybe for similar reasons. There's kind of. They have partnership, you know, I don't know, like Steam, for example, or whatever, the Epic store or, I don't know, Xbox gamer tag or something. You have kind of an ecosystem that has a bunch of behind the scenes business relationships that powering why other experiences would integrate that specific wallet or account. I mean, maybe even account is a better term for this than wallet. And then that's right. So there's like these business relationships that and then maybe there's like some reward scheme between them, like you have some frequent flyer miles or something, some card and that. Yeah. Encourages you to choose to use that wallet in new products that maybe support multiple options. Or do you imagine that each like I'm making a game, I'm going to have a business relationship with, I don't know, Robin Hood or something in order for you to continue using there? And how do you think it'll shake out? Or I guess it's it's early days.

Itai Turbahn: So I'll try to give a prediction. I will say that my predictions are usually wrong. So please, for anyone listening, you know, please, this time what I say, because I will. We'll say something very boldly, but never in doubt that usually wrong. The the. what's really interesting is I kind of think about. so the holy grail for a lot of apps is to become your fintech company, right? To get closer to money.

Nicholas: X dot com. They want to be everything app with a credit card connected or even better.

Itai Turbahn: That's exactly right. Right. Like and you can see this. Let's take one example. Starbucks, right? Starbucks has an app. It's extremely powerful. You know, a third of if I recall correctly, like half of the. Transactions happen on the app and a third of their orders are through the app. It's this massive, massive concept. The next step for a Starbucks is to kind of create a financial hub around their app, right? There's no reason why you wouldn't go into, you know, McDonald's is an example and maybe not McDonald's, but, you know, a smaller chain and use your Starbucks app to pay and gather loyalty points. Right. Strengthen Starbucks. As kind of your hub, and it lowers the kind of the friction for that small chain to acquire new customers. now that that can happen slowly with BD relationships and Starbucks closed tech on how they manage their kind of, you know, embedded, you know, standard wallet within their app. But if it was kind of a crypto based wallet, those. Interaction. So those relationships could happen significantly faster. Right. You can do some some kind of, you know, some folks can kind of build on top of the Starbucks app very, very quickly because there are these shared rails for how an embedded crypto wallet kind of within the Starbucks apps app talks to other other stores. And so it accelerates it. essentially lets bigger players create these really powerful. Kind of financial platforms that let them kind of open their ecosystem beyond their realms in a very scalable and very composable way. And it lets others benefit from it. And the same I give the Starbucks example. And again, sorry for the very long reply, but I give the Starbucks example. And the same holds true. for, you know, if you think about a big brand and then have it enable a smaller brands on top of it or anything like that. So it strengthens it. It creates these really interesting opportunities for a lot of the bigger companies out there to actually strengthen their value proposition to their consumers by creating an ecosystem around them very, very quickly.

Nicholas: OK, so we might imagine, let's say the bull run happens and big companies start getting interested in integrating more. I was looking at your blog. I saw. I don't know what it was about, but I saw Spotify on there somewhere. Let's just say Spotify decides we're going to try out NFT program and sell it as some kind of new way for. Musicians to to earn money through Spotify and they bundle a dynamic wallet inside of the existing Spotify app. They could. they obviously dynamic would help with making that possible. And then people could potentially log in with their Spotify wallet into other applications and bring whatever assets and experience.

Itai Turbahn: That's right. Into like a sound dot X, Y, Z. Right. And connect that and bring that together. Right. So it's a good example. Dynamic plays on kind of both sides of that. Right. Of supporting a sound. In order to let wallets log in, but then supporting, you know, obviously. just to clarify, right. Spotify is not a dynamic customer, although if they're listening, count me in. Happy to have that conversation. But the that strengthens both sides and provides this kind of quote unquote multiplayer value to music. Right.

Nicholas: So so OK, so dynamic is then a service provider to or API SDK provider to people who want to build their own wallet slash identity. Or is that something that can really feed into some app, be it more crypto native or more web two native, and then maybe even grow out from there into being a kind of branded wallet experience that is portable to all kinds of other applications that support dynamic log in.

Itai Turbahn: To an extent. So we think about us a little bit more like an off zero versus anything brand. Right. So we are. we have no aspirations. You will not see a dynamic wallet out there. Right. Rather, what you will see is a set of infrastructure tools that can be a little bit faster. empower everyone in the marketplace to build these, at the end of the day, these are all types of authentication experiences, right? And so really think about us as kind of a web three off zero in the sense that our goal is to build developer tools for folks to kind of handle both sides of that experience that we talked about, right? Both the experience on the Spotify side of kind of the embedded experience and also the experience on the apps that want to interact with the Spotify app and wallet with kind of the more visible, you know, log in with your MetaMask, log in with your Spotify and combine the two, right? So that's where dynamic plays, but we're very much an infrastructure provider in that sense. Think about us, again, like an Auth0 or Twilio or Segment, not a consumer branded wallet.

Nicholas: Got it. Turnkey was on the show last week and I realized we should really dive into kind of technically what is dynamic? Do you work with Turnkey?

Itai Turbahn: We do. We are big fans of the Turnkey team.

Nicholas: So tell me, like if I'm a developer, I'm building an app or I'm working for someone that already has an app that's successful and I want to put in a wallet, like what is dynamic really? What am I integrating?

Itai Turbahn: Yeah, so absolutely. So when you, well, it really depends, right? So let's talk about the two use cases, right? Let's talk about the use case of a website, like, you know, if you're going to Starkware or Sound or Fair.xyz and you click log in, that's all that, or, you know, an IYK, you click log in, that's dynamic. And then let's talk about the specific kind of experience of kind of a fully embedded solution, right? The first one that we talked about, that we talk about is what you're integrating is kind of a full authentication platform. And that includes a couple, right? That includes a dynamic SDK that lets you, based on your use case, choose whether you show a kind of, you know, a more wallet adapter, right? A MetaMask and a Coinbase wallet, and, you know, a Wallet Connect, et cetera. So we provide that in an SDK. We are multi-chain, so you can do this with EVM or Flow or Solana or Starkware or Cosmos. And the value proposition there, and the thing that dynamic provides is this full user management system. So you integrate that, you can log in with wallets, you can log in with email or social login, and get a full kind of experience around that. you get kind of Webhooks and you can notify your customers of updates and you get authorization. So you can get access to parts of your site based on what someone has in their wallet. So that's kind of experience, or you can generate other wallets for folks that log in, right. So that's experience number one, now within that, right, we said generated wallet for folks that log in. That's where kind of the embedded wallet experience come in, right. It's the fact that you can have someone who has no idea what crypto is log in with an email address or social log in. We use pass keys to kind of ensure there's no phishing or anything of that sort. And at that end of that flow, you kind of get an embedded wallet. Now, that's in partnership with Turnkey. What we've done is essentially built the entire kind of user management and UI experience. But the keys themselves are kind of secured by Turnkey in their super interesting kind of trusted execution environment approach. And so you kind of get the best of both worlds of a company that focuses fully on user management and experience in the SDK and a company that focuses fully on securing your keys for a living to make sure you're in a good spot. So that's where the partnership there is. So if you use the dynamic interface. If you use the embedded wallet, you kind of get the best of both.

Nicholas: I want to definitely dive into the embedded wallet stuff. It's obviously the hot topic and what's most exciting going on right now. But I'm curious what you mean about like a full account system. Is this the orchestration piece of the product? And what does it really offer beyond what just WalletConnect SDK would offer?

Itai Turbahn: Sure, absolutely. So to your point, WalletConnect, I would think about they have done incredible things for the ecosystem, right? And the way I think about them is incredible. I think about them as a critical protocol that we partially use. But just like essentially the way in that sense, think about the dynamic is really very similar. If you ignore crypto for a second, it's really similar to how you would approach starting a company in Web 2.0 and kind of the regular internet. And when you start a company in Web 2.0, one of the first decisions you have to make is what login system do you use, right? And you kind of make a choice between two. You either take kind of an open source passport JS. Or a device or anything of that sort. And you set it up or you go to a professional company like Auth0 or Stitch or Clerk and you implement their system and you get kind of the benefits of that. So you get kind of your user management and you get authentication and someone to handle the JWT tokens for you, anything like that. That that's the analogy here, which is what you get with dynamic is not a kind of a wallet connector that is a part of it, but you get kind of a full user management system. So if you go to some of our customers like Maple Finance, you would go in and log in and all their users, right, are managed within the dynamic system. We handle who gets log out, we handle captchas, we, again, handle access to parts of the site based on authorization. So, you know, whether you're within this list, you get access to part A of the site, this other list, part B of the site to really a full user management. System is what we offer at the very kind of core of dynamic. So that's really the way to think about it.

Nicholas: Yeah, that does seem like something that's not offered by all of the other options that are really just establishing the connection to the wallet. They don't do things like gating parts of the website or any of those pieces. And I guess from your experience in Web2, I guess building or as a customer, you believe that this is really crucial that that be built into the same product as the wallet piece.

Itai Turbahn: Yeah, absolutely. Look, and to your point, if you think about a decision someone has to make. when they're building a company, they really have to figure out what they're trying to build, right? If they're building a weekend project, they really likely just need a connector, right? And they can use Dynamics kind of open source library. They can use some great options out there like a Connect Kit or a Rainbow Kit, right, in our Web3 model and leverage a lot of these really great tools for a simple project. But if you're building a company, right, and you need to start thinking about, okay, I need to manage my users. I need to make sure that I can track more information about them. or I can store, I can collect information about them as part of onboarding and ask them questions about, okay, they connected their wallet and they want to collect their email address as well. Or I want to ask them for which country they're in so I can kind of serve them well, right? Or in the case of we've worked with Animoca Labs, they want to kind of segment folks into. Animoca Brands, they wanted to segment folks into specific groups for teams in the game, right? So that's where you likely use kind of a SaaS provider like Dynamics to create that full experience. So it's not, you know, I wouldn't necessarily put it as, hey, these are kind of competing things, more, hey, what are you trying to build? And based on that, choose the relevant tools for you to succeed as a company.

Nicholas: Got it, got it. Yeah, well. So there's this, there's also the embedded product. So, but the embedded product with Turnkey under the hood, I'm very curious about how you're using Passkeys plus Turnkey and why you believe that's the best solution. Or maybe you offer multiple solutions and that's just one, but I think that's a kind of opinionated take on how embedded wallets should function.

Itai Turbahn: Yeah, so first to your question, we do offer multiple solutions. You'll see more from us very soon on that front. The idea there, and I'll touch upon Passkeys in a second because I'm a huge fan of Passkeys. But the idea of embedded wallets, in our opinion, is that there's actually no one best embedded wallet kind of offering. Rather, the right embedded wallet offering is a flexible one, right? The type of embedded wallet that you need if you're building a game is very different than the type of embedded wallet that you need if you're kind of issuing millions of zero dollar NFTs versus if you're building a DeFi product, then your customers will secure millions of dollars in each one of these wallets. So it's not necessarily that there's one solution for embedded wallets, and that's why our offering, you'll see over time, and it kind of is a dynamic, no pun intended, or a little bit of pun intended offering that lets you kind of choose the right setup for your use case, right? So again, if you're building something very simple that was zero dollar worth wallet, it might be a very different solution than it would be if it was embedded. if you're kind of trying to secure millions of dollars in each well. And now double-clicking on PASCIs, PASCIs are kind of, actually, before that, did that part make sense? Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so maybe double-clicking on PASCIs, rarely, let's, again, step back from the world of crypto for a second. Rarely in the history of the world of authentication has there been kind of a real revolution. Uh, and PASCIs are the first time in many, many, many years that in the, you know, thrill, let's call it the thrilling world of authentication, there is this like entire revolution, right? I, if you go to the, um, you know, the, the global authentication geeks, they will tell you that this is, this is like a, a, a pivotal moment, uh, in the world of authentication.

Nicholas: It is strangely exciting for such a dull topic.

Itai Turbahn: Yeah, that's exactly right. When, when, when you say that. When you say the word authentication, you, it is actually, uh, remarkably hard to add the word exciting afterwards. Uh, but, uh, to your point, this might be the first time in a very long time where you can actually add this, right? Um, and what, and why is that right? It's for two reasons, right? Um, the, the first one is that, um, something magical happened over the last 10 years, which is everyone kind of got a smartphone in their pocket, uh, that lets them use biometrics, right? And that's, that's unique. That couldn't have existed before. And then the second thing that happened is that, um, the kind of the, the, there's a control of these mobile ecosystems, right? Pretty much two players, right? Apple and Google. And so with that consolidation, you can start building really cool stuff at scale. And so within the, the FIDO Alliance, uh, Apple and Google and Microsoft and others kind of came up with this concept of, okay, what is the biggest problem? What is the biggest problem of authentication today? And the biggest problem is passwords, right? And, and it's a big problem because when people log in, uh, they first, we use their passwords, they forget their passwords. They give their passwords away more easily than they should. And so the key thing is, okay, how do we eliminate that? They essentially come up with this concept, which is, Hey, let's create invisible, unique, and super powerful passwords, uh, for each site and, and kind of combining it with people's biometrics. And. And that's pass keys, right? That's inherently pass keys. It's, it's one time or single, single site, super long, uh, super complex passwords that you can't easily share because they're invisible to you then use, right? And so this is this, it's this remarkable concept and remarkable kind of, uh, um, mission to completely eliminate passwords for the first time in kind of the internet's history. And given that you have this setup. Biometrics for everyone and to kind of competing to leading players in the market that are both bought into this, you actually have an opportunity to kind of completely change the game. And so that's, that is the concept of pass keys that we can get into why they're like super exciting for crypto in a second. But, but that is kind of this inherent, really cool. Again, I'll use the word exciting, you know, uh, with some, uh, uh, being a little bit careful here that exciting and off is not like the best combination, but the, the, this really, really, really, really cool concept. Uh, that is, that is kind of accelerating and getting to all of us very quickly.

Nicholas: Yeah, definitely. Uh, and w we've talked about a little bit on the show, the pass keys and, and 7, 2, 1, 2, uh, which people can check out. those other episodes are actually now there's search on the website. So you can search something like pass keys and see all the episodes where it's mentioned in the full transcript, uh, which is pretty cool. Um, and obviously the, I mean, to cut to the chase, the pass keys are cool for crypto because they can be signers on account abstraction, uh, or on smart accounts, but actually with turnkey, they can also be. Uh, so I think it's very interesting that you've chosen that. Do you think is the idea because you think it's, it's more relevant to have, uh, or more compliant with a variety of chains to have a pass key control, a regular, uh, K one curve EOA, or why is it that that's, uh, been included in the product when it's kind of, uh, still, still sort of a speculative product. I don't know how many people are using that just yet.

Itai Turbahn: Uh, when you say speculative, you mean pass keys in general or pass keys controlling a, uh, EOA in the cloud on its own.

Nicholas: Ah, got it.

Itai Turbahn: Okay. Fair enough. Look, I, I think the, the, um, I would argue by the way that like, as much as that speculative, I would argue that, uh, seven, two, one, two is probably an order of magnitude more, right. Given that, uh, that, that, uh, that's the spice we're looking for here.

Nicholas: Okay.

Itai Turbahn: So tell me, you know, I mean, no, but, uh, we're giant and we're giant fans of, uh, I just think that like, besides one or two companies that I think have figured out and started launching things around it, we're still in the very, very, very early days. So

Nicholas: you're saying, It's more realistic today as much as people may not be that frequently using, and you, you tell me how many users are actually doing it today, but as much as people may not be really using pass keys to control, uh, K one curve EOA in the cloud on, on Amazon nitro or wherever it lives, then, you know, having some EIP that is, uh, for now vaporware, uh, is even more speculative.

Itai Turbahn: Yeah, no, I wouldn't, I wouldn't necessarily say that. Right. So my, uh, the, the, I let's, I would ignore kind of the, uh, part of what the passive controls, because that's your point is an ever changing landscape. Right. And I, I don't think we know, right. It might control, uh, a account like account abstraction, uh, kind of smart contract accounts directly. And it might be through an EOA signer, uh, in the future. I actually don't necessarily think it's one approach is better than the other. I think there there's this kind of spectrum of approaches and I think the industry together will kind of figure out where, where the buck lands. I, I, I kind of think. More about, uh, kind of actually just the past key interface in general, which I think regardless of the way you use it, whether it's with TEs or use it with seven, uh, two, one, two, or you use it by the way to store, uh, have a local share of your, you can also use it to store a local share within kind of an MPC approach, or you can use it, uh, in the, uh, in the same way that Warpcast uses it, which is with large blog and kind of storing the type of private key.

Nicholas: There's so many options.

Itai Turbahn: Yeah, there's so many options. Exactly. And we don't necessarily know where this is going to, like, end up, um, and we're pretty excited about all of them. The thing we're like specifically excited about is this concept of when you, if someone gets access to a random, you know, account that you have on the internet, they might, they usually get access to your information and that's bad. But if someone gets access to your wallet, they usually have access to your money, which is really, really bad. Right. And so this concept of the, the, the beauty of. PASCII and like the, the concept that you can't really fish it and you can't actually easily, you know, and if you get SIM swapped, you're still usually fine. It prevents so many other kind of, you know, attack vectors. That is the thing that's exciting to me, not necessarily the single place in which, um, how it's used within crypto, because to your, to the point we made kind of, there's a myriad of ways you can do that, but rather the thing that's specifically exciting is the fact that it is, um, kind of a. A significant improvement in terms of security and your ability to kind of interact with wall.

Nicholas: Because it, because there's no button you can click to expose the private key, the seed.

Itai Turbahn: That's that's exactly right. There's no button that there's. no, there's nothing for you to remember and hence forget. There's no easy button for you to share that information. It actually like Apple, if I recall correctly, um, can only, you can only share it with like an airdrop to someone next to you. There's like, it's automatically backed. Up. By your iCloud or Google password manager or one password or a bit warden. It's like all the things we are, we have been trying to convince, you know, our, our, our families every like Thanksgiving to do, uh, in kind of improve how they secure their stuff online, just in an automatic way where we don't have to pitch them. Hey, use different passwords. Hey, use a password manager, you know, don't give away your passwords, all that type of stuff that kind of just goes away.

Nicholas: Yeah, it does put a little bit more burden on, um, SIM swapping. On your Apple ID, for example, um, which is a little bit scary.

Itai Turbahn: But by the way, the counter to that, I'm sorry, I know I'm like, uh, probably on the list of folks passionate about pass keys. I probably am on top, top 10 of that, but the, the, the, the, the cool thing around kind of Apple specifically is that as part of your first pass, we set up Apple's. may Apple makes you set up to, uh, to a fake, right. Which is this really cool concept, right? It's this. This concept of, uh, Apple says, look, if you're now trusting us with password, uh, with pass keys, which let you access a bunch of things, you kind of have to increase your security with an Apple. And so you have over the next year or so, you're going to have hundreds of millions of folks just literally up their game on security without even knowing.

Nicholas: You say that's compared to people who just have password entry and don't have any, it doesn't send a text to any other device.

Itai Turbahn: That's exactly right. That's exactly right.

Nicholas: But it does still have like a, by default, at least. And I know that it is possible. With, uh, what is it? Uh, it's the pair, I think of advanced protection, encrypting your iCloud key chain, if it isn't already. And, uh, recovery contacts, uh, removing Apple as having the key to your end to end encrypted backups. And instead having, uh, anybody who is you add as a recovery contact and who accepts to be so for you can then restore your access to a device. If you forget your password to a device that was previously logged in to that account. Yeah. So that's, that's cool. That's right. Even within app. I mean, obviously, so that's very cool. There is obviously a lot of trust still in Apple here. Uh, it actually is what it says it is. Um, but there are these recovery solutions that are pretty cool. If you are willing to trust Apple, which I guess for your OG Bitcoin maxi is kind of a non-starter.

Itai Turbahn: Walk me through that again. Not sure on this with that part.

Nicholas: I mean, just to trust that the solution to making crypto UX easy for people is that we trust Apple. Ah. That's not really a big, uh, win for the OG Bitcoin maxi.

Itai Turbahn: I think that's a fair argument, right? And I think, look, I think it's a combination of two things. I think, uh, for first you're right, but, uh, but I think it's a combination of two things. I think it's a combination of default power, strong default, right? Which is, Hey, how about, how about we get, you know, 90, 95% of folks that don't really care to, uh, a better spot than they are today is definitely a better spot. And then it's a combination of advanced options, right? And what that. That essentially means right in our case, and I'm sure in the case of other folks in our industry, you can, you can very easily export your key, right? Your private key and take it with you and store it and use it with a mega map, right? And so it is, and then not trust anyone, right? Not, not use a passkey and not trust Apple. and pretty, you know, you're still trusting your Apple because you might have a map, right? And so there's still kind of an element of trust there and you're trusting, uh, Apple because you have an Apple chip or an Intel chip. So there, there's always, these are all, um, layers. There are layers of trust, uh, but it's about, I think finding these powerful defaults, uh, for security, for everyone who doesn't care and providing optionality and flexibility for everyone who does. Right. And so that, that is a little bit how I think about it.

Nicholas: I'm very curious about this, uh, option that they give you in iOS. When you create a passkey, you can store it on the device only in iCloud key chain or another passkey, uh, third-party key chain manager, which all of the password managers are becoming. Or you can store it on a YubiKey. And I feel, I feel that there's some, I realize it's a little bit out of the wheelhouse of the software solutions that you're building, but it is connected. It seems like YubiKey, if there was, and to my knowledge, there is not a YubiKey with physical passcode entry, uh, on the device to unlock, to, to gain access to the secret material or to the signatures that it's able to generate, then you would really not need Ledger anymore. You could just have a passkey signer, uh, on a, let's say future device. Or 7212, uh, future where, where you're able to just sign transactions directly. You just have a passkey on a YubiKey with a passcode entry and you no longer need any of the other hardware wallet technology.

Itai Turbahn: That is correct. By the way, even today, you have YubiKeys that have a thumbprint element to them.

Nicholas: This is what I'm curious. I thought it was maybe just a capacitive sensor, but it is actually checking that your biometrics.

Itai Turbahn: You know, I, I, I take that back. I might be wrong. I, I.

Nicholas: I don't know. I don't know.

Itai Turbahn: On that front.

Nicholas: It seems to me like the whole YubiKey design thus far, as I understand it, is that it's always just, if you have access to the physical device of the YubiKey, that is access. There's no subsequent authentication.

Itai Turbahn: There is, there is a second, there is a second software. On the computer. Which is you can add, yeah, on the computer.

Nicholas: It's no good. It's no good.

Itai Turbahn: But to your point. Yeah. Uh, that's actually a good question. I don't know whether, uh, like the type in ones, et cetera. I might actually have. Right.

Nicholas: I mean, they, they, they know this stuff better than we do, or at least better than I do. Uh, it must have occurred to them.

Itai Turbahn: I, I, I'm sure, you know, I, I, I just don't know enough to kind of give a, a confident answer and not, uh, walk it back in a couple minutes as I, as I.

Nicholas: It's not even as good as the, like the, whatever it's called, Model T Tresor, where you have the passcode input on the computer, but it's randomizing the position of the numbers and only the device knows which position they're in. Uh, YubiKeys don't do that with the password entry. It's, it's just, I mean, if there's a key logger on the computer, that YubiKey is as good as not having a password.

Itai Turbahn: So. There's two challenges here, right? Which is, uh, and I, I think one of them is. I, I kind of discount a little bit what, or I I'll push back a little bit on what you described, uh, in terms of kind of the Tresor or a ledger versus a YubiKey. And in a second, there's a second challenge here though, which is the, the kind of elliptic curve challenge, right? Which is the main reason today you can't actually do this is, is just the fact that it, you know, Ethereum supports a different elliptic curve. Right. So, and so theoretically, right. If you fast forward two or three years. With enough EIPs, uh, your, your iPhone just becomes your hardware wallet, right? Like then you use a secure enclave on your phone and you're pretty much good to go. Right. There's no reason.

Nicholas: It's kind of cool. Uh, it, it, it does offer something that a secure enclave inside of an online device doesn't have, even if the secure enclave makes some promises.

Itai Turbahn: And sorry, just to make sure it's clear, actually that part I'm not pushing back on the part I'm pushing back on is kind of the XKCD, a $5 wrench problem.

Nicholas: Right. Right.

Itai Turbahn: Right. Uh, so the, the, the, the pass. Okay. So the thing that YubiKeys and Ledgers and Trezors, in my opinion, protect you from is kind of easy remote attacks. Right. Um, the things that I think I put them all in the same category of protection that they don't protect you from is a $5 wrench problem of, Hey, you know, someone knocks on your door with like a $5 wrench. Uh, whether you have a password on the thing or no, or you don't actually doesn't matter because you're likely just going to give them. Uh, you know, the information that they need because they have a wrench. Right.

Nicholas: Or like, I, I, you know, I think if they have physical access to your YubiKey or your phone, they might have physical access to you.

Itai Turbahn: That's exactly right. And so that's where the lines, that's where I push back a little bit because the lines there are, are not as kind of clear, um, in my opinion, clear cut as one is better than the other. Uh, the challenge is, you know, I think this solves all of these things, solve parts of the problem. Right. And at the end of the day, nothing is stopping, uh, you know, uh, uh, government entity from kind of coming in. If you're doing something proper and like, you know, uh, you know, you're doing whatever. Right. And so, um, the, these are all solving parts of the challenge, not necessarily all of them.

Nicholas: I think they're all interesting ingredients for, and it came up in the turnkey conversation last week, also sort of multi-factor. maybe, you know, instead of having a multi-sig with, uh, we each have one private key in, uh, online. Uh, we each have one private key in, uh, on a ledger. that's a signer on a safe. Instead, maybe we each have some kind of identity that has a threshold of factors of, we need to plug in our YubiKey and we need to pull out our ledger and we need to sign with MetaMask and we need to log into Google and then we're able to sign. And I think all of these are kind of ingredients in something like that. And obviously most use cases won't require that level of security, but you could really get to a point where you're authenticating the person is there through so many factors that you can really have some pretty good confidence that it really is them.

Itai Turbahn: That's exactly right. And that's the, that's, you know, to your point, like, uh, Bryson team are thinking about these exact exact set of sense problems, which is kind of, you know, um, and we think about it from our own layer, which is kind of, um, um, there is no one, it comes back to the point. There is no one embedded solution product, but rather it's a set of choices that you need to get offered access to in order to set up the right solution for your use case. Right. And the security, you know, at one point you would. If you're secure enough funds, you, you probably need to go to a firebox that does this at one order of level of complexity or two or et cetera. So it's all about trade-offs.

Nicholas: Yeah. I was just talking to someone from there. I have to get them on the show to discuss, but I'm curious. Um, I mean, one problem here is that it, while it is sort of a internet of money and identity rails, the, uh, I don't know what I want to use the word disambiguation, but it's not exactly the right word, but that I should log in with my Gmail into a certain. A certain app that uses, I don't know, some other alternative to dynamic and then a site that uses dynamic with the same email, they won't actually share private key material. That, that to me, there's something, the privatization of the cross domain accounts seems like, well, are we really benefiting that much? Or is it just like a layer on top of the existing stuff?

Itai Turbahn: Yeah. It comes back to, I mean, it's a really good, it's a really good observation. I think. You're right. Right. First, by the way, uh, you know, shameless plug. If anyone looks at my, uh, uh, Warpcast, um, you know, uh, uh, message from a couple of days ago, I have kind of a full thread around interoperability. Right. I, I don't necessarily think. Right. Your point. Someone goes into site a and logs in with Google gets while they go to site B blogs in with Google gets wallet B.

Nicholas: So confusing, you know, for a regular person.

Itai Turbahn: Is that right though? Because essentially if, if you think about it. If you were to go to, um, you know, um, website.

Nicholas: Sephora and Zara have different accounts. Okay.

Itai Turbahn: Let's you go to Sephora today and you log in and you buy something on Sephora. Then you go to home Depot again, shameless plug. Great, great, uh, great company. Uh, but you go to Sephora and then you go to home Depot and you log in and within home Depot, you see your Sephora purchases. You'll be like, whoa, this is really, really weird. Right. And, and, and then you'll be like, okay, wait, are they the same company? Are they, how are they associated? And so there's confusion at times in interoperability, right? It's not as straightforward as just you log into the same places and you see the same stuff. you have to educate the user. That's actually, you're sharing some sort of credential. Even if you use login with Google with Sephora and then home Depot, you would not expect to see your purchase orders from website a on website B.

Nicholas: Right. Right. But if I sign in with Facebook on both of them, I expect that I, it is the same Facebook that they're connected to. So if I, you know, if I provide an email, I don't know, the email is, I guess, common still, even if the experience that they provide isn't cognizant of the alternate account you created on the other service provider with the same email as the identifier, it's, it's a little bit confusing, but I guess what you're saying is it'll basically be like Starbucks login and you know, you'll provide your email to connect to your Starbucks login or passkey or whatever. And then Starbucks will be the, the, the brand of the authorization is why you can anticipate that it will be aware of your other experiences. Log in with Instagram or what have you.

Itai Turbahn: That's right. It's, it's, you need a concept, right? You need a shared concept of a hub, right? So to your point, you went, let's take the Sephora versus the, the home Depot, kind of the Sephora and home Depot example. You would not, you go to Sephora and you log in and you should see Sephora. You go to home Depot and you log in, you should see home Depot and seeing both on both are confusing. But then if you go to your Google account that you use or your Facebook account that you use to log into both sites, you should see information from both. Right? And so this, it's this concept of like accounts that tie into kind of a single kind of parent account, right? It's this, in my opinion, that is the concept of interoperability. It's not necessarily that you see information from website A to web on website B, but rather that you have a place C that lets you link and unlink websites A and B to each other. In our example, Facebook or Google, but another example of Starbucks or, or anything, you know, or, or a kind of a branded wallet type thing. Right. A hub or a forecast or, or anything like that. So that is, that is how I think about. interoperability is not necessarily A and B, but rather A, B and C.

Nicholas: It reminds me a lot of, I talked to Alexander Chopin sometimes, accountless.eth. And maybe you're, I think you're also in the web sessions telegram, which is pretty good on all this passkey stuff. And, you know, he's really obsessed with having a single account, like a session. He refers to it as a web session. Right. Which is not a language I had really heard in that way that he uses it. But to mean a single identity that is functions across everything and you don't need to manage all these different accounts. But I also am partial to this alternative, complete alternative, which is it's actually very nice to have things sandboxed. I like that. my wow account can't take money from my bank account and they're not just the same thing. So I, I, I tend to agree with you that there is something at least to the idea that there would be a branded identities that are. And people have multiple of them. You don't want everything in one identity necessarily.

Itai Turbahn: That's exactly right. It'll be very, very weird if then I go and I log into my work site and then all my Sephora purchases are there. Right.

Nicholas: I suppose his answer, I don't know what his answer would be, but I suppose it would be something about permissioning, but maybe I'm reaching, I don't actually know.

Itai Turbahn: No, but I think, I think your point is exactly right. Right. This is the, this is the branded kind of and we just worked with him by the way on kind of the account abstraction market. Right. You know, I don't want to ask you about that, but the, the, the idea of permissioning is exactly that, right? You, you need to explicitly communicate to a user. And again, this can be outside crypto, right? This is just a UX conversation of when you do something that might be surprising, you have to explicitly explain to the user what you're about to do and get their permission or kind of get their opt in for the thing you're about to do. So sharing your information makes a lot of sense. in a good example is again, you do the Facebook pop up, Facebook asks you, what, what do you want me to share with Sephora? When, what do you want me to share with home Depot? Right. And so as long as there is this concept of permissioning of a very clear dialogue, what you're about to link and what you're about to not link, then the rest is fine. The, the kind of the abstracting that way, in my opinion is super confusing.

Nicholas: I think what, what really resonates with me about what you're saying is that in the mind of a person who doesn't really give a crap about any of this stuff, and it's just trying to live their life. It's probably actually much easier. To grab onto and remember a brand that is proposed to you as you're logging into something versus, um, um, uh, four through three, seven module that lets you control what, uh, you know, like some session key or something for a given app on your, uh, a shared wallet across all the apps. That's going to be much too in the details, even if it's simplified in the UI, it's really much harder to like, probably people are much better at managing it at the level of the , oh, I can log in with Facebook or Gmail or Instagram versus I have to go regularly audit my authorized apps on my Twitter and see what what's got permission to read, write Twitter.

Itai Turbahn: Yeah, that's exactly the least. Look, I think for us to succeed as an, as succeed as an industry, we have to choose our battles, right? The, the least amount we have to kind of, uh, create a jarring experience for folks that they're not used to the bed, right? If we can give them the benefits of crypto. The benefits. The benefits of shared rail, the benefits of shared accounts over time, uh, without kind of creating jarring and surprising experiences for them, we all do better. Right. And so, uh, let that, my two cents is we have to choose our battles on where we kind of innovate and where we kind of copy and maintain experiences that we know people are used to. So that's, that's a little bit kind of my, my, my two cents there, uh, is that we got to balance. It's not like a all or nothing. We kind of have to balance it and maybe kind of, you know. Uh, uh, sequence it.

Nicholas: Okay. So I, I want to get to Pimlico. I want to get to multi-chain login in a second, but first, uh, what, so is there, is there no default path for what a developer should implement as a dynamic embedded wallet? It's really, there's a bunch of different options, including TE, including connect to a smart account on an L2 or something, including, I don't know, can you even do, I guess the TE would be the closest because it's pass keys based, but maybe there's even options that are not pass keys based where you're just generating. That's right. Holding an EOA in the cloud for them without turnkey.

Itai Turbahn: Uh, yeah, you'll, you'll see stuff from us, uh, there, uh, soon. Uh, nothing I can share today, but you'll, you'll see, uh, stuff, stuff from us on that front soon. Again, with the spirit that there is, isn't necessarily kind of a single option that works for everyone.

Nicholas: Do you worry about that being like too much cognitive overhead for developers and it's actually better to choose?

Itai Turbahn: I do. There's always a balance of optionality versus how opinionated you are. And so with everything I described. It's about strong default, right? Like just like, just like anything in life. It's, uh, it's this concept of, uh, okay, what do I, when I'm starting a project, how do I get to a finish line of kind of implementation within five minutes? And then how do I easily choose advanced options as I need them? Right. And so the way we built dynamic, uh, and, uh, I hope this holds true for anyone listening, please kind of play around with the product and let me know whether it does. But we try to get to a point where within, um, you know, four to five minutes, you can set up a full working user management and authentication solution that lets you log in with a wallet, log in with email, log in with social, set up an embedded wallet and, and do all that type of stuff. Once you're done with that, you can get, you kind of get to kind of more advanced options of, wait, how do I want to manage my keys? If I want, if I care and, uh, whether I spin up a smart contract account, if I care, and whether I do capture information. But the idea is that, um, you start and then you evolve over time, very similar, by the way, to how you evolve and you're thinking about the startup you're building, which is, okay, let me start with something very basic. And then as I learn more about my customers, uh, I want to evolve kind of the experience and kind of expanding. And so in a very similar way, yes, we provide a lot of flexibility and, and, and a part of why we chose the name, but it's about, okay, let's abstract that way until very later in the process where you, um, kind of, you know, make those decisions. where we see it, by the way, with customers is we see customers kind of, you know, over their implementation period, they implement. And then week two, they ask us a question and they get excited that, Hey, we have this feature. They, they, they think about asking on week zero and week five, they ask about another feature and so on. So it's this discovery thing. That's really interesting on complexity over time. Okay.

Nicholas: So, um, so I was going to ask you what happens if, if the TE is, if the, if the company is going down, but it doesn't matter because the answer is that you've chosen that path. Uh, and so that's the risk profile that you've chosen.

Itai Turbahn: Well, again, this is why, uh, several options of key management are important, right? And, and it's not necessarily one, but, uh, the, the, to your point, there, there are always balance balances on trust here, right? And what happened in a lot of where we're thinking and not necessarily all of these are products that we have today, but a lot of where we're thinking is exactly what you asked, which is okay. How do you create, uh, an experience? that. Is independent of the dynamic, right? So if the dynamic server is down or, uh, one of our kind of partner servers are down, how do you still kind of ensure a coherent experience? One of the things that, um, we do today is kind of connect only, um, you know, multi wall linking where you can actually, uh, link together multiple wallets, manage all of that without touching dynamic servers. Right. So we're adding more and more stuff there.

Nicholas: So that would be like a separately hosted, uh, dashboard or what is that?

Itai Turbahn: Uh, you will see stuff. Uh, I will, I will refrain from kind of doubling. Double clicking on that. If okay. Uh, except that.

Nicholas: No, no, not okay. Do it, do it, do it.

Itai Turbahn: Exactly. There's no, I went too far. Uh, but, uh, no, I would say that exactly, but I would say that we really care about it, giving folks flexibility, uh, on their appetite on kind of trust. Right. And, and it's really kind of a UX versus trust versus these are all kind of, you know, vectors that the idea is to give defaults, but then let people play around with it. With, uh, with stuff, um, at, at, to their level of comfort.

Nicholas: How is it possible to have someone log into Ethereum, Solana and Starkware with the same, uh, same account? Yeah.

Itai Turbahn: So you're starting to see that. So first, uh, today it's multiple accounts. And one place you see that is if you go to the Starkware bridge, uh, that has, you know, uh, a huge amount of people using it every day, uh, they essentially let you log in with your MetaMask, which is on chain one. Then they let you log in with your, uh, kind of Braavos wallet. And, uh, what dynamic does is, is kind of handle both of those handle linking of those wallets together. So the next time you come in, it just shows you kind of those, those wallets and let you handle all of them as a single user. Um, that's kind of one experience, which is the experience of multiple wallets across multiple chains. Uh, what you'll see us do is, is there are other experiences, right? They're really interesting, uh, wallets around like Phantom and really interesting wallets, like Coinbase, uh, wallets. And now let you do kind of multi-chain, right? They let you, they ha there are Solana wallets, you know, then go with a Bitcoin wallet, uh, and their EVM wallet. And the idea that over time, and some of this is not done yet, but the idea is that over time, you just log in with Coinbase wallet and you should be able to automatically log into all these chains, uh, without even knowing, right. It shouldn't, the fact that the Coinbase wallet support like five chains or today too should be completely. Irrelevant to you. You should just be able to log in today. The experience that we provide is when you choose Coinbase, if, uh, you're on a site that supports both Solana and Ethereum or a good example, uh, doodles, which is a dynamic customer, uh, uses flow and Ethereum, uh, you kind of can choose, um, wallets from both chains and kind of connect them together to a single account.

Nicholas: Okay. I see. I see. Okay. So you, you have the same email login and depending on what the site is asking for it, we'll use one or the other.

Itai Turbahn: That's exactly, that's exactly right. And then you can create a wallet. You can create these really cool experiences. And again, you see this on doodles, you see this on cross mint, uh, uh, that uses dynamic and a bunch of other sites that kind of. let you create more sophisticated, uh, multi-chain experiences, evaluate market. That is a flow and, uh, Ethereum, uh, kind of experience, uh, experience. Uh, so all of those kind of, that's where multi-chain comes.

Nicholas: I'm impressed that you're able to do so. much like doing, going out on a limb and integrating flow is, is time consuming. I imagine. Uh, and maybe, I don't know if it's relevant for the rest of who's using it or maybe it was at the time that you did it, but how are you able to, do you think it's a good thing and how are you able to be so broad in your support?

Itai Turbahn: Absolutely. I look, it's, these are all sets of trade-offs, right? Like us building flow meant we didn't build something else. I think there are a lot of, um, the, the flow ecosystem specifically, I think is a little bit underrated. Uh, there are some kind of really cool projects that are being built on flow. Um, and more and more by the way. Uh, over time that we're seeing, um, the, the, the short answer, the perfectly honest answer is we have, we have, you know, I, I get, I get to do the fun stuff, which is talk to people and like, uh, you know, bill, you know, do some product stuff and market stuff and sales stuff. But, but we have a phenomenal engineering team that actually kind of builds on, right. And so we're able, a part of it is, is thanks to kind of the benefit of having a really good team. That is at this point, kind of an expert in everything that has to do. Um, kind of thinking about new chains, bringing those in and kind of integrating with them. And so we've developed a lot of processes around it, but also it's part of our value proposition, right? The value proposition of dynamic is web three authentication, and that doesn't limit itself to EVM, right? Authentication challenges exist on flow and exists on Starkware and exists on Solana and exists doubly. So on, um, you know, folks that are trying to do two or more of these at the same time. Right. Right. Right. So that is, that is a little bit how we think about it. These are all trade-offs, but we're very much a core to our mission.

Nicholas: But basically the connective tissue between multiple accounts on different chains or, um, this, uh, account access orchestration gating feature we were talking about earlier, these are things that are happening essentially on, uh, your servers and then apps make calls to them via the SDK in order to find out whether or not the, a certain page should be gated. That is correct.

Itai Turbahn: So today's it's a little bit more centralized. Uh, I think there are some really interesting projects around, uh, delegate.xyz and things like that, that create more, uh, decentralized registries, right. And so what you'll see us do over time is try to kind of move some of this logic that is today centralized on dynamic servers to be a little bit more decentralized, uh, kind of, you know, and stored, you know, with deeds and verifiable credentials, uh, elsewhere.

Nicholas: But I guess in any case, if I were to connect with MetaMask or some other kind of, uh, EOA that I control. Then you might still build a profile for me, but I ultimately control the wallet that holds the assets or the account, I should say that holds the assets.

Itai Turbahn: That is correct. That is correct. As long as you use a branded wallet and then they, you are your own IDP or your own identity provider, right? You log in, you sign. that is by the way, also true for embedded wallets, right? These are non-custodial wallets, meaning I can create them for you, but you have to explicitly sign in order to make things happen. Right. And so you still have control. You can export your data. You still have control, whether it's a kind of a wallet that uses seed phrases or whether it's a wallet that uses PEs or MPC, um, you at the end of the day, as long as it's non-custodial, you have full control over it.

Nicholas: Right. Um, you mentioned Pimlico before, uh, you're working with Pimlico. I know you did that sort of, uh, diagram graphic, uh, research on all the different players that are in the space. Is that the extent of the relationship or what else are you doing?

Itai Turbahn: Uh, that's a great question. Um, the. The way the dynamic works in general is that, uh, we think about kind of, you know, you as a developer care about a solution. You don't care about a specific technology, right? You should, you know, the vast majority of developers should not really care about a four, three, three, seven. They should just care that they can spin up, uh, kind of a wallet for a user and they can make it completely abstracted away with a sponsoring gas or sessions. Right. Or anything like that. Right. Our goal dynamic is essentially to let you do that with very simple toggle. And so today we work with, uh, zero dev and alchemy on that, right? So you go into the dynamic dashboard and with a single click, you could turn on a zero dev and every EO way gets, uh, an account abstraction wallet, uh, attached to it. And, uh, in the future, it might be that we let you choose, uh, kind of your pay master or your bundler with Pimlico. Um, you know. And they're phenomenal. Other players like stack up in the market, um, uh, and alchemy obviously provide services around this, but the idea is, is kind of a combination of user choice and, um, some abstraction of that. Uh, so yes, you will, you will see us do more stuff with, uh, I hope, uh, and if, uh, you know, Alexander and Kristoff were listening, uh, no, then, uh, I count us in. But, uh, the, the, the idea is that over time we will do more and more stuff, uh, with, with, um, selling these like really cool players in the market on, on kind of creating nicer overall solutions for developers.

Nicholas: I see on the site that you talk about multi-wallet, what does that mean? Yeah.

Itai Turbahn: So, uh, this is, this is it at the very basic level, right? If you go to most, um, um, dApps today, your user is really your wallet, meaning you, the, the way these dApps see you is a single wallet. Now, uh, I'm not sure about you. I'm assuming, uh, I know about me. I have a lot of wallets, right? Um, I have Solana wallet and I have multiple wallets on UVM and they all store kind of parts of my identity and parts of my kind of, um, ANS accounts and, and, and parts of my NFTs and so on. And so, uh, when you go into, um, these dApps, you shouldn't just really, you know, your user should be a combination of your wallets. It shouldn't just be one. That is what multi-wallet offers. It offers the ability today, and we talked about this a little bit more centrally in the future, maybe a little bit more. essentially, I kind of link multiple wallets into that same account and keep them in a single profile for that specific website. So you go in and again, two examples, uh, or three examples that are interesting is you go into Starkware bridge and you log in, you connect your Braavos wallet and your MetaMask wallet. And next time you log in. Uh, you see both of those, you go into doodles and you log in with your email and you collect your neck, your flow wallet and EVM wallet or two EVM wallets and so on. And you can see your entire kind of doodles collections across both of them. Uh, or you go into an NFT marketplace and you connect, uh, several of your wallets or you can see kind of a profile of your entire collection. Now you see, um, and again, sorry for the very long answer, but, um, you see some of the bigger players out there have built this on their own in a really nice way. Like Zapper, right? So you go into Zapper and you can link multiple wallets together and see all your profile across these wallets, right? Or Zerion does this, this is, this is that solution productionized for everyone, for everyone else.

Nicholas: I see. So basically when people integrate dynamic as an app developer, they, their apps should be designed to anticipate that there might be multiple wallets associated with a specific account, even across multiple chains.

Itai Turbahn: That is, that is exactly right. That is exactly right. By the way, another experience there is, um, and we've seen this with some PWAs out there is you let all your users start with the embedded wallet, right? You have strapped away crypto in step one, but in step two, you let them bring their own wallet and connect it to their account so that going forward, they can link, they can log in with that or, uh, as a way to transfer assets to that third party wallet, right? So it's not necessarily just two branded wallets, like a MetaMask and Coinbase and a Phantom being connected to the same account, but it's also, let me connect my embedded wallet and then connect my MetaMask to that same account and move from kind of a slightly more abstracted experience or slightly more web three experience.

Nicholas: And that would be something that they would find in the settings of the wallet in the app.

Itai Turbahn: That's exactly right.

Nicholas: Because it's a bit complicated. It's, it's a little bit, uh, you don't want to show everyone that they can do that first thing.

Itai Turbahn: That's exactly right. So in that use case, the embedded wallet, branded wallet, uh, it's much more of a, an advanced setting. Hmm.

Nicholas: Um, how do webhooks come into play?

Itai Turbahn: Yeah. So, uh, I actually, I just tweeted about this. I think every company has a time in its life cycle where they kind of have to build webhooks. Uh, it, our time has come, uh, but in short, we're, we manage your users. So if you're a developer, kind of your entire kind of set of users sits within dynamic. And so, and you usually want to take action when a user does something, right? So an account is created. Uh, you. You want to, um, you want to take action. You might want to send a welcome email to that user, uh, and your wallet is linked. You might want to send some instructions to that user, right? Or you might want to kind of post, you know, and you user signed up to your B2B site. You might want to post on Slack internally, uh, to let your folks know that something's happening. And that's, that is the fundamental concept of webhooks. It's the ability for me to subscribe you to events that happen on your site and let you know about them in real time. And it can be as easy as just letting you know, so you can send the email or so that you connected to Zapier and then start building really complex and a marketing flow is based on it. Or you can send it to a holder.xyz or, um, kind of, uh, a CRM type of offer, uh, experience and log your user there or a HubSpot or Salesforce, right? So it, it is this kind of tool that lets you leverage other tools in order to build kind of a business.

Nicholas: So you mentioned, uh, a few of the people who are using dynamic today, but are there any examples that jumped to mind that people should know about of different kinds of ways that people have leveraged what you're doing and maybe some big brands that are using it or interesting applications that come to mind?

Itai Turbahn: Yeah. So you, you actually see dynamic on, on kind of a whole spectrum of companies today. So anything from DeFi type companies like super form and lighter to RWA companies like maple and Jasmine energy to, uh, kind of, you know, gain. So you actually see, um, dynamic used across kind of a variety or a Starkware that we talked about, right. Um, a variety of these use cases. Um, and that's actually the coolest part about my job is that I get to kind of talk with kind of all these really cool builders across them. Um, but the short answer is you see it used anywhere from a very, very small number of Uh, you know, a very abstracted use case, which is just embedded wallets to a very kind of web three in your face experience, uh, which is mostly kind of, you know, wallet login and branded wallet login, like a MetaMask and Coinbase, uh, on some more web three websites. So that's kind of the mix that you see, uh, but it's really spans across, uh, B2B offerings to B2C to, uh, you know, uh, real world assets to finance, et cetera.

Nicholas: Thanks. This was a great conversation. Uh, if people want to learn more about dynamic, where should they go?

Itai Turbahn: Yeah. So thanks for having me. Uh, if folks want to learn more about dynamic, the easiest place to start is dynamic.xyz. Uh, and you can get a bunch of information, uh, about what the company does and where to kind of poke around. Uh, the coolest thing to check out though, is actually demo.dynamic.xyz. You can play around with the product. You can see kind of how it morphs from a more web three product, but just wallets to a full web two product with embedded wallets and anywhere in between, uh, you can change themes and colors and things of that sort. And if you want to get started, honestly, just go to docs.dynamic.xyz, go to the quick start guide and, uh, you know, it's sort of like pizza, uh, 30 minutes or your money back guaranteed, just no money back guaranteed. Just check it out. It's very easy to start on just, uh, docs.dynamic.xyz.

Nicholas: Awesome. Uh, I'm sure people will check that out. This is great. Itai, thanks so much. Thanks everyone for coming to listen. See you next week. Hey, thanks for listening to this episode of web three galaxy brain. to keep up with everything web three, follow me on Twitter at Nicholas with four leading ends. You can find links to the topics discussed on today's episode in the show notes. Podcast feed links are available@web3galaxybrain.com. web three galaxy brain airs live most Friday afternoons at 5:00 PM Eastern time, 2200 UTC on Twitter spaces. I look forward to seeing you there.